When srila Prabhupada was present some disciples tried to be guru n he stopped them by saying it's not the etiquette, so after his departure devotees became guru now if Prabhupada come back then which way he can stop?
The Ṛṭvik System is Authorised
by Kṛṣṇakānt
23/8/06
Śrī Nandanandana dās (Stephen Knapp) has attacked Śrīla Prabhupāda's authorised Ṛṭvik (initiation) system in a talk which he gave at the Detroit temple on 13/8/2006. The talk was titled, “The Guru and the Power of the Parampara”. Śrī Nandanandana Prabhu’s (henceforward to be called the author) talk will be analysed below, with his comments enclosed in speech marks thus “”.
The author opens his attack on Śrīla Prabhupāda's Ṛṭvik system with a classic straw-man argument:
“Therefore, the so-called ritvik system that some people proclaim to follow, by which it is assumed that a person can become initiated and still be Srila Prabhupada’s direct disciple, is nothing but conjecture.”
The ‘so-called Ṛṭvik system’ was actually established by Śrīla Prabhupāda and it gave full authority to ‘Ṛṭviks' to initiate persons on behalf of Śrīla Prabhupāda, without reference to Śrīla Prabhupāda:
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there’s no need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. They can write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your disciples. Anybody who gives initiation is doing so on your behalf.
Prabhupada:Yes. [Ṛṭviks are named by Śrīla Prabhupāda]
Prabhupada: So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is right... That will depend on discretion.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On discretion.
Prabhupāda:Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s for first and second initiations.
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Śrīla Prabhupāda has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
(July 9th, 1977, Directive to all GBCs and Temple Presidents)
So clearly the Ṛṭvik system does not ‘assume’ one is initiated as Śrīla Prabhupāda's disciple. Rather the initiation was supposed to be given on Śrīla Prabhupāda's behalf via a system he authorised, and therefore Śrīla Prabhupāda already approved all those who would be initiated via the Ṛṭviks.
The author himself states the following:
“Herein we can see that in every aspect of this purport it indicates an ongoing personal relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. […]In this way, the guru asks and overseas in a personal way the progress of the disciple and makes sure he or she is understanding things properly. If there are any doubts, or illusions or remaining ignorance, it is the duty of the guru to sweep such illusions away from the disciple so the disciple can continue progressing appropriately. But the guru takes the interest to see how the disciple is progressing. And the disciple also is able to express any such doubts to the guru for clarification. This is the essential relationship between the guru and disciple as illustrated by Lord Krishna Himself and explained here by Srila Prabhupada.”
So pray tell us, WHO has been ‘overseeing in a personal way’ the ‘ongoing’ relationship between Śrīla Prabhupāda and the author for the last 30 years? To WHOM has the author been expressing his doubts for clarification for the last 30 years? If the answer is Śrīla Prabhupāda, then there is nothing to prevent anyone else having the same personal relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda, since he too can become connected to Śrīla Prabhupāda formally via the Ritvik initiation system which Śrīla Prabhupāda himself authorised.
“So as in the case with Srila Prabhupada, he was a pure devotee and was certainly powerful enough to make other pure devotees. Some of these devotees may take the position of spiritual master and take disciples while others may not. But we should understand that through sincerely following Srila Prabhupada and repeating his instructions, we become empowered by the whole line of previous acharyas. So those who take the position of spiritual master will certainly be able to give the potency of the whole sampradaya by sincerely following the instructions and giving the teachings that have come down through the sampradaya.”
But, in order for a Dīkṣā-guru to be able to follow Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions, he first needs an instruction for himself to become a Dīkṣā-guru successor to Śrīla Prabhupāda. But WHERE is this instruction from Śrīla Prabhupāda authorising Dīkṣā-guru successors to himself? It has been 30 years and the GBC still are unable to present the instruction from Śrīla Prabhupāda which states that:
a) He will stop being the Dīkṣā-guru for ISKCON on his departure, and therefore the 11 Ṛṭviks he appointed to act on his behalf will stop acting as such on his departure.
b) The 11 Ṛṭviks will transmogrify into Dīkṣā-guru successors to Śrīla Prabhupāda upon Śrīla Prabhupāda's departure.
Indeed, not only have the GBC not been able to present such an instruction, but they have continually changed what they claim Śrīla Prabhupāda did supposedly instruct. The GBC first assumed that Śrīla Prabhupāda was to be removed as the Dīkṣā-guru for ISKCON on his departure. They then further assumed that only the 11 persons he appointed as Ṛṭviks were to become ‘successor zonal Ācāryas’ to Śrīla Prabhupāda. They then later assumed that actually anyone who gets a majority vote from the GBC can become a successor Ācārya.
Thus what is ACTUALLY ‘assumed’ and ‘conjectured’ is the GBC program that any Śrīla Prabhupāda disciple can ‘assume’ himself to be the successor Dīkṣā-guru to Śrīla Prabhupāda, without any order from Śrīla Prabhupāda to do so.
So it is the Ṛṭvik system which has been authorised by Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the current ‘anyone except Śrīla Prabhupāda's can be Dīkṣā-guru' GBC system which has been concocted out of thin air.
"Is it necessary for one to live in a temple or visit a temple to practice Bhakti? Thank you."
- Joseph Rubalcava, California, USA
Editor replies:
Dear Joseph,
Regarding needing a temple to practise Kṛṣṇa consciousness, please note:
Reporter: "But suppose I were to become an initiate. Wouldn't I have to come and live in the temple?"
Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Not necessarily."
Reporter: "I can stay at home?"
Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Oh, yes."
Reporter: "What about work? Would I have to give up my job?"
Śrīla Prabhupāda: "No, you'd simply have to give up your bad habits and chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra on these beads – that's all."
(The Science of Self-Realization, 2b)
"Gṛhe thāko vane thāko, ‘ha gaurāṅga’ bo’le ḍāko. Not that everyone has to live in the temple. [...] he can live separately. But he must follow the rules and regulation."
(Śrīla Prabhupāda, Morning Walk, 3/2/75)
"I am so pleased to hear that you are living nicely with your parents and carrying on with your Kṛṣṇa Consciousness activities. That is a good proposal. Nevermind there maybe some inconvenience. Kṛṣṇa always appreciates when his devotee makes some sacrifice on His behalf, so there is no real difficulty under any conditions so long as we remember the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
(Śrīla Prabhupāda Letter, 4/9/72)
"Actually there is no difference between devotees living inside the temple and devotees living outside the temple. You are right that the important thing is to remember Kṛṣṇa, whatever is your activity."
(Śrīla Prabhupāda Letter, 29/9/72)
A picture of Kṛṣṇa is also as good as seeing the Deity:
"But in Kṛṣṇa's form, if you have a Kṛṣṇa's photograph, it is as good as Kṛṣṇa. [...] You can get the same benefit from the photograph picture of Kṛṣṇa as you get benefit by directly meeting Him."
(Śrīla Prabhupāda Lecture, 22/5/72)
For further information regarding the position of ISKCON temples, please go to this link.
by Kṛṣṇakānt
23/8/06
Śrī Nandanandana dās (Stephen Knapp) has attacked Śrīla Prabhupāda's authorised Ṛṭvik (initiation) system in a talk which he gave at the Detroit temple on 13/8/2006. The talk was titled, “The Guru and the Power of the Parampara”. Śrī Nandanandana Prabhu’s (henceforward to be called the author) talk will be analysed below, with his comments enclosed in speech marks thus “”.
The author opens his attack on Śrīla Prabhupāda's Ṛṭvik system with a classic straw-man argument:
“Therefore, the so-called ritvik system that some people proclaim to follow, by which it is assumed that a person can become initiated and still be Srila Prabhupada’s direct disciple, is nothing but conjecture.”
The ‘so-called Ṛṭvik system’ was actually established by Śrīla Prabhupāda and it gave full authority to ‘Ṛṭviks' to initiate persons on behalf of Śrīla Prabhupāda, without reference to Śrīla Prabhupāda:
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there’s no need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. They can write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your disciples. Anybody who gives initiation is doing so on your behalf.
Prabhupada:Yes. [Ṛṭviks are named by Śrīla Prabhupāda]
Prabhupada: So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is right... That will depend on discretion.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On discretion.
Prabhupāda:Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s for first and second initiations.
Prabhupada: Hm. (July 7th, 1977, Room Conversation)
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Śrīla Prabhupāda has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
(July 9th, 1977, Directive to all GBCs and Temple Presidents)
So clearly the Ṛṭvik system does not ‘assume’ one is initiated as Śrīla Prabhupāda's disciple. Rather the initiation was supposed to be given on Śrīla Prabhupāda's behalf via a system he authorised, and therefore Śrīla Prabhupāda already approved all those who would be initiated via the Ṛṭviks.
The author himself states the following:
“Herein we can see that in every aspect of this purport it indicates an ongoing personal relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. […]In this way, the guru asks and overseas in a personal way the progress of the disciple and makes sure he or she is understanding things properly. If there are any doubts, or illusions or remaining ignorance, it is the duty of the guru to sweep such illusions away from the disciple so the disciple can continue progressing appropriately. But the guru takes the interest to see how the disciple is progressing. And the disciple also is able to express any such doubts to the guru for clarification. This is the essential relationship between the guru and disciple as illustrated by Lord Krishna Himself and explained here by Srila Prabhupada.”
So pray tell us, WHO has been ‘overseeing in a personal way’ the ‘ongoing’ relationship between Śrīla Prabhupāda and the author for the last 30 years? To WHOM has the author been expressing his doubts for clarification for the last 30 years? If the answer is Śrīla Prabhupāda, then there is nothing to prevent anyone else having the same personal relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda, since he too can become connected to Śrīla Prabhupāda formally via the Ritvik initiation system which Śrīla Prabhupāda himself authorised.
“So as in the case with Srila Prabhupada, he was a pure devotee and was certainly powerful enough to make other pure devotees. Some of these devotees may take the position of spiritual master and take disciples while others may not. But we should understand that through sincerely following Srila Prabhupada and repeating his instructions, we become empowered by the whole line of previous acharyas. So those who take the position of spiritual master will certainly be able to give the potency of the whole sampradaya by sincerely following the instructions and giving the teachings that have come down through the sampradaya.”
But, in order for a Dīkṣā-guru to be able to follow Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions, he first needs an instruction for himself to become a Dīkṣā-guru successor to Śrīla Prabhupāda. But WHERE is this instruction from Śrīla Prabhupāda authorising Dīkṣā-guru successors to himself? It has been 30 years and the GBC still are unable to present the instruction from Śrīla Prabhupāda which states that:
a) He will stop being the Dīkṣā-guru for ISKCON on his departure, and therefore the 11 Ṛṭviks he appointed to act on his behalf will stop acting as such on his departure.
b) The 11 Ṛṭviks will transmogrify into Dīkṣā-guru successors to Śrīla Prabhupāda upon Śrīla Prabhupāda's departure.
Indeed, not only have the GBC not been able to present such an instruction, but they have continually changed what they claim Śrīla Prabhupāda did supposedly instruct. The GBC first assumed that Śrīla Prabhupāda was to be removed as the Dīkṣā-guru for ISKCON on his departure. They then further assumed that only the 11 persons he appointed as Ṛṭviks were to become ‘successor zonal Ācāryas’ to Śrīla Prabhupāda. They then later assumed that actually anyone who gets a majority vote from the GBC can become a successor Ācārya.
Thus what is ACTUALLY ‘assumed’ and ‘conjectured’ is the GBC program that any Śrīla Prabhupāda disciple can ‘assume’ himself to be the successor Dīkṣā-guru to Śrīla Prabhupāda, without any order from Śrīla Prabhupāda to do so.
So it is the Ṛṭvik system which has been authorised by Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the current ‘anyone except Śrīla Prabhupāda's can be Dīkṣā-guru' GBC system which has been concocted out of thin air.
Back To Prabhupada, Issue 71, Vol 4, 2021, Interactive
https://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/btp71-Are-Temples-Essential-for-Bhakti.html
"Is it necessary for one to live in a temple or visit a temple to practice Bhakti? Thank you."
- Joseph Rubalcava, California, USA
Editor replies:
Dear Joseph,
Regarding needing a temple to practise Kṛṣṇa consciousness, please note:
Reporter: "But suppose I were to become an initiate. Wouldn't I have to come and live in the temple?"
Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Not necessarily."
Reporter: "I can stay at home?"
Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Oh, yes."
Reporter: "What about work? Would I have to give up my job?"
Śrīla Prabhupāda: "No, you'd simply have to give up your bad habits and chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra on these beads – that's all."
(The Science of Self-Realization, 2b)
"Gṛhe thāko vane thāko, ‘ha gaurāṅga’ bo’le ḍāko. Not that everyone has to live in the temple. [...] he can live separately. But he must follow the rules and regulation."
(Śrīla Prabhupāda, Morning Walk, 3/2/75)
"I am so pleased to hear that you are living nicely with your parents and carrying on with your Kṛṣṇa Consciousness activities. That is a good proposal. Nevermind there maybe some inconvenience. Kṛṣṇa always appreciates when his devotee makes some sacrifice on His behalf, so there is no real difficulty under any conditions so long as we remember the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
(Śrīla Prabhupāda Letter, 4/9/72)
"Actually there is no difference between devotees living inside the temple and devotees living outside the temple. You are right that the important thing is to remember Kṛṣṇa, whatever is your activity."
(Śrīla Prabhupāda Letter, 29/9/72)
A picture of Kṛṣṇa is also as good as seeing the Deity:
"But in Kṛṣṇa's form, if you have a Kṛṣṇa's photograph, it is as good as Kṛṣṇa. [...] You can get the same benefit from the photograph picture of Kṛṣṇa as you get benefit by directly meeting Him."
(Śrīla Prabhupāda Lecture, 22/5/72)
For further information regarding the position of ISKCON temples, please go to this link.
https://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/Visiting-ISKCON-temples-index.html
Return to "Visiting ISKCON Temples" Index
https://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/Visiting-ISKCON-temples-index.html
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