- ISKCON Gurus
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This video was taken at the historic official ISKCON debate on the ritvik philosophy, the idea that Srila Prabhupada established a system in ISKCON which would enable him to continue to accept disciples, even after he was no longer physically present. It is quite amazing as it is attended by practically all the ISKCON leaders in North America.
The presentation given by the devotees from the then "Vedic Village Review," a monthly magazine that became the venue for much discussion on Srila Prabhupada's ritvik instructions for ISKCON, was very well received. So much so that a vote taken at the end of the debate by all the devotees present almost unanimously agreed that the evidence presented in this debate by Rupa Vilas Prabhu, Karanamrta Prabhu, Yasoda Nandana Prabhu, and others, was substantial, and that this matter should be taken up very seriously for further consideration in ISKCON.
Mysteriously this video was never released and since this debate there has not been any serious discussion of Srila Prabhuapda's clear instructions in regard to how disciples would be initiated in ISKCON after he was no longer physically present.
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Tapasya Tyaga 2 weeks agoWe can see the fruits of the ISKCON lineage as it branches off in many directions. JAS is still obsessed about Kirtan standards.
Others pursue their own personality cults. Fall-downs continued after this.
Some temples are poor and struggle. Others are very rich. But there is an "I got mine...you get yours" mentality.
Its all so disappointing.
CroDude 1 month agoIt seems that Jad has admitted in his own talks that he is possessed by certain evil spirits and that he is a demon like person. This kind of shouting only reveals his character and the aggressive energy behind his desire for power and control. In this case, I think the Jews have unfortunately become involved with the wrong spiritual community. That person should be removed from any position of influence as soon as possible.
Furthermore, his extraordinary efforts to alter Srila Prabhupada's books, the books of an Acarya, suggest that he considers himself more qualified, more intelligent, and in a position to correct his own spiritual master. At times, it appears as if he sees himself as a co-author or even the true architect of Srila Prabhupada's books. Such an offensive attitude is deeply troubling and raises serious questions about humility, obedience, and respect for the acarya.
Red Neck 1 month agoJaiadvaita Swami's disciple Kadamba Kanana Swami was accepting disciples so what the story there?- Red Neck 1 month agoHow could anyone trust a guru who has the 4 defects without bluffing themselves that they are pure devotees, we've seen many 'pure devotees ' have fallen down due to all or one of those defects?
- thumb_up — 1
Angel82NYC 4 months agoJAS is very cocky for someone who brought ZERO evidence. Other people should have presented since him and Ravindra Swarup both benefit from keeping the system as is.- thumb_up — 1
Ayush Raghuwanshi 4 months agoWHAT HAPPENED IMMEDIATELY AFTER — The vote was ignored
As a result of the debate, a resolution was passed to conduct an investigation and have further discussions during the upcoming Mayapur meetings.
Those promised further discussions never happened. Instead:
The GBC passed a Prohibition Order in 1990 declaring the posthumous ritvik initiation theory a “dangerous philosophical deviation” — totally prohibited in ISKCON. No devotee was permitted to participate in such ceremonies in any capacity, including acting as ritvik, initiate, assistant, organizer, or financer. No ISKCON devotee could advocate or support its practice.
The editors of the Vedic Village Review — Nityananda Das, Rupa Vilas Das, and Karnamrita Das — were ordered to admit error, apologize publicly, and permit the GBC to distribute a written rectification to their entire subscriber base at the VVR’s own expense. If they refused by May 31, 1990, they would be expelled from ISKCON.
Dr Dilip Kumar 8 months agoWhat System Did Śrīla Prabhupāda Want for Initiation?
We will examine the only three official documents Prabhupāda left in mid–1977:
1. May 28 Conversation (GBC asks about initiations “when you are no longer with us”)
2. June 4 Will (legal instruction, signed & witnessed)
3. July 9 Letter (signed directive to GBC/Temple Presidents)
Let’s see what these three documents collectively establish.
________________________________________
1. May 28 Conversation — The Question Is About AFTER Prabhupāda’s Departure
The GBC asked:
“When you are no longer with us, how will initiations be conducted?”
This is the exact question.
Prabhupāda answers:
“I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating ācāryas.”
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: “Is that called ritvik-ācārya?”
Prabhupāda: “Ritvik, yes.”
So:
For after his departure, he designates ritvik-officiating ācāryas.
Next he says:
“In MY PRESENCE one should not become guru.”
This means:
• Ritvik system is necessary in his presence because they cannot become guru while he lives.
• Guru system comes ONLY after he gives the order.
Then he adds the condition:
“When I order, ‘You become guru,’ he becomes regular guru.”
This is the key point:
➡ Order is required
➡ No order = no guru
And there is no recorded instance of Prabhupāda ordering anyone to become guru.
Therefore, the system remaining after his departure is the one he actually established:
👉 Ritvik-officiating system
________________________________________
2. June 4 Will — Legal Document Prepared by Lawyer, Signed & Witnessed
Important line:
“Successor directors must be MY initiated disciples.”
Ask a simple logical question:
Prabhupāda knew he would depart soon.
If initiations stopped after his departure, then:
• After all original disciples die,
• No new “Prabhupāda disciples” would exist,
• Then ISKCON property could never have new directors.
This is impossible — it would destroy ISKCON legally.
Therefore:
➡ Prabhupāda expected new Prabhupāda disciples to continue
➡ Only possible if ritvik initiations continue
Because only the July 9 system says:
“Newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda.”
Thus, the Will indirectly confirms the need for continuous Prabhupāda-initiated disciples.
________________________________________
3. July 9 Letter — Prabhupāda’s Final Initiation Directive
This is the only signed, approved, circulated, institutional order on initiation.
It states:
• “Ritvik — representative of ācārya”
• “Temple Presidents should henceforward send recommendations to these ritviks”
• “The newly initiated devotees are disciples of Srila Prabhupada”
• “Name should be entered in Prabhupāda’s disciples’ book”
Key word:
HENCEFORWARD
Meaning:
From now on → and continuing → no ending mentioned
No:
• “Until I pass away”
• “Temporary”
• “For now only”
If a worldwide institution is given a major process change, and no ending is written, the instruction stands until replaced by another written order.
➡ No later written order exists.
Therefore:
👉 Prabhupāda’s last written order = ritvik initiation system
👉 This is the only documented initiation system he formally set up
________________________________________
LOGICAL CONCLUSION
(Using only facts, not emotion)
Fact 1:
Prabhupāda said: “One must be ordered by his guru to become guru.”
Fact 2:
There is no such order recorded for anyone.
Fact 3:
The only system he ordered in writing is ritvik.
Fact 4:
His Will requires “my initiated disciples” to exist after his physical departure.
Fact 5:
The July 9 letter allows unlimited new Prabhupāda disciples.
________________________________________
Therefore, Reasoning Leads to Only One System:
✅The Ritvik (officiating) system continues after Prabhupāda’s departure
until he or Kṛṣṇa directly authorizes a new ācārya.**
This is not sentiment — it is the only system supported by:
• The conversation
• The Will
• The letter
• His teachings on guru-authorization
And NO OTHER system is ordered anywhere.
Jay Srila Prabhupada.- thumb_up — 2
Emory Horace 9 months agoJaya Srila Prabhupada , who is is the only bonafide diksha guru in Iskcon.- thumb_up — 3
Daityari-hari dasa 9 months agoRitvik philosophy is so similar to how modern evangelical Christianity views Jesus Christ but at least I guess they chant 16 rounds and follow the 4 regs. There is a being difference between a principal and a detail, the principal of Guru is so fundamental that even Krsna and Lord Caitanya accepted physicaly present Gurus. You could make the arguement that they didn't officiate marriages but there is a vast difference between acting as a priest and acting as a Guru. To think that Prabhupada is giving you guidance in the heart without any real need for surrendering to a Guru in Prabhudadas line is a fundamentally dishonest conception at its core. It circumvents the actual need to surrender to someone in a personal way for a conditioned soul under the guise of surrendering to Prabhupada. It's so easy to claim complete surrender to someone that isn't physically present to refute your claims.- thumb_up — 2
Aa 10 months agoFor context:
Srila Prabhupada used the phrase, "law of disciplic succession", once in a private letter in 1975 to a deviant disciple who had left ISKCON two years prior to form his own faction.
docpyx 1 year agoWho gives understanding of a paramhamsa's literature? He himself or another paramhamsa. Anugatya is required to navigate the labyrinthime corridors of spiritual life.
ItsMikeSandoval 1 year agolarge gathering of cheaters and scammer deciding how to continue scamming and cheating the public with their Bullshite..
Arjun Dhanvan 1 year agoDoes this mean that Srila Prabhupada could not create even one pure devotee who could becoma a diksha guru after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance or Srila Prabhupada could create many pure devotees and some are capable of becoming diksha gurus?
Darshan S D 1 year agoIt's not about whether Prabhupada was capable of creating a pure devotee...it's about the order of the spiritual master...and the final order is clear and loud in the july 9th directive. Stop cheating yourself and others by unnecessary thoughts such as this. Keep it very simple.. Prabhupada has stressed it..Nobody can become a guru without an order from the spiritual master. And there was no such order from Prabhupada.
Suvyakta Narasimha Dasa 1 year agoIskcon GBC resolution no. 409 of 1999 states that the GBC doesn't certify any guru in iskcon to be a pure devotee or uttamadhikari or having achieved any specific state of realization. So the GBC itself accepts that the current gurus in iskcon may not be pure devotees. So your question is not answered by the unauthorised guru system. However, Srila Prabhupada did answer your question in this conversation in San Diego recorded on June 29, 1972:
"Prabhupada: So far designation is concerned, the spiritual master authorizes every one of his disciple. But it is up to the disciple to carry out the order, able to carry out or not. It is not that spiritual master is partial, he designates one and rejects other. He may do that. If the other is not qualified, he can do that. But actually his intention is not like that. He wants that each and every one of his disciple become as powerful as he is or more than that. That is his desire. Just like father wants every son to be as qualified or more qualified than the father. But it is up to the student or to the son to raise himself to that standard.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, I understand.
Prabhupada: If you are incapable of raising yourself to the standard of becoming spiritual master, that is not your spiritual master's fault, that is your fault."
So if Srila Prabhupada's disciple didn't become a pure devotee, it is not Srila Prabhupada's fault. it is the fault of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada that they didn't progress to become pure devotees.
Gerold Bendix 1 year agoIf you judge according to the result it's very easy to come to the conclusion that the 11 fools spoiled it.
Just look at the last remaining of them, if you think it's fine to have your personal saliva remover attendees, and that is a sign of spiritual progress to be unable to preach in understandable language, yeah well good luck.- Gerold Bendix 1 year agoLastly I witnessed a conversation between two Jayapataka disciples (satirical)
Older disciple: Prabhu, did you hear Maharajas lecture yesterday?
New Bhakta: No... what did he say?
Older disciple: "Krish....na!"
New Bhakta: Nothing else?
Older disciple: Well, Maharaja is always very clear, very concise...he basically leaves no doubt.
New Bhakta: Understand...aaannd he really didn't say more?
Older disciple: No! why should he, isn't Krishna the essence of everything?
New Bhakta: Right mmh but wondering why he didn't expanded on that a little bit more.
Older disciple: No, he didn't expand that! and it's perfectly okay, because he is a pure devotee, you should not doubt a pure soul!
New Bhakta: Sorry, I didn't doubt him, was just curious!!
Older disciple: That's okay, Maharaja doesn't want to speak so much, but his short instructions are always very clear, right?
New Bhakta: little short so ?
Older disciple: No, very concise, not short.
New Bhakta: Okay Prabhu?
Older disciple: Here have a Xanax!
New Bhakta: 😮
However I offer my humble respect to Jayapataka Swami for bringing so much conditioned souls to Srila Prabhupadas mission, as a ritvik in Srila Prabhupada's service.
🙏🙏🙏👍
Nagarjuna Jupudi 1 year agoHare Krishna! Unparallel endeavours by Ritvik team to establish Srila Prabhupad's order.
Viswa Guru Srila Prabhupad ki jai 🙏- thumb_up — 2
Dasadasanudas 1 year agoHare Krishna! Unparallel endeavours by Ritvik team to establish Srila Prabhupad's order.
Viswa Guru Srila Prabhupad ki jai 🙏- thumb_up — 3
Saroj Kumar 1 year agoPrabhu ji,
Kindly be honest and open-hearted in accepting the Ritvik system as established by our beloved Acharya, Srila Prabhupad. Without sincerely acknowledging and following his clear instructions, especially on such a vital matter, our spiritual journey may not bear the intended fruit.
When one drifts away from humility and true surrender to Srila Prabhupad, the essence of real spirituality is lost. What remains is often just a struggle to maintain material position under the guise of spiritual leadership.
Let us not allow personal ambition or self-concocted ideas to overshadow the divine order of our spiritual master. For genuine spiritual progress, it is essential to remain submissive, sincere, and faithful to Srila Prabhupad’s teachings.
Hare Krishna.
🙏🙏- thumb_up — 5
DD 1 year ago @geroldbendix1651 I am planing to open a temple in my town....Can I with my friends and family nominate ourselves as Ritwiks and give diksha using Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's picture directly? Please tell I need help!
Pankaj Jangid 1 year ago@DD-su5ht You can do that provided you have been told to do so by Sri Chaitanya mahaprabhu. Srila Prabhupada told to continue as ritvik so we can take initiation through ritvik from Srila Prabhupada, not previous aacaryas.
Hope your doubt is clear😊
Hare Krishna 🙏
Arindam Mitra 1 year ago@PankajJangid-iw2bh Neither Lord Chaitanya nor the previous Acharyas in the disciplic succession deviated from Shastras!!!
Also, in no way our dearest Srila Prabhupada will deviate from shastra as He always stressed on 3 things : guru, sadhu, shastra!!
Srila Prabhupada was so humble, if HDG would have wanted diksha in Ritwik mode permanently, HDG would have surely done the following:
1. Stressed on Ritwikism multiple times in his lectures, conversations, and letters!
2. Himself would have followed Ritwikism (As Acharyas teaches by OWN EXAMPLE). Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Maharaja neither Asked not given order in written form to Srila Prabhupada to give Diksha!! And as such Srila Prabhupada would have used a "picture" or "Archa Vigraha" of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Maharaj for giving Diksha on his behalf!!! But Srila Prabhupada didn't do so because this is NEVER recommended in the Sastra!!!!!
Srila Prabhupada was in this mortal world till 14 Nov 1977. Wherein Srila Prabhupada has stated that "9 July letter" which was written and signed by HH Tamala Krishna Goswami Maharaja was "Final Order"???
Srila Prabhupada would surely have mentioned in his "Conversations" or "Final Will" that His 9th July Letter was HIS Final Order!!!
Srila Prabhupada, the day He arrived in America till His Last days, repeatedly mentioned that His disciples after being properly trained will become Gurus (only qualified disciples)!!!
You yourself think prji that Srila Prabhupada himself made the 11 Ritwiks. Ofcourse some of them fell down, but some of them to this day are sincerely serving Srila Prabhupada with impeccable character! Is it right to blaspheme them in the name of those who fell down?? Infact there are many instances where Srila Prabhupada was so pleased with His sincere disciples that He called them "Pure Vaisnavas" and "Representative of His Guru Maharaj" and many more. Do you think Ritwik seniors have better understanding than Srila Prabhupada??
My only request is kindly think about it after refering to Shastra, Srila Prabhupada's multiple lectures, conversations, etc. and finally the lives of the sincere senior disciples of Srila Prabhupada.
Those Ritwik seniors who have never even seen or served Srila Prabhupada directly are staging themselves as more qualified than "Srila Prabhupada's Direct Disciples". This is so absurd!!!
And lastly, again I want to state that Srila Prabhupada will never go against the disciplic succession and shastra!!!
Truly Srila Prabhupada is eternally living, but that is also applicable to previous Vaisnava Acharyas!!
- Saroj Kumar 1 year agoHare Krishna,
With due respect, it appears that there is a selective and motivated resistance towards accepting the Ritvik system, which has been clearly and authoritatively established by Srila Prabhupad. May I humbly ask, what difficulty lies in accepting the instruction given in Srila Prabhupad’s letter dated 9th July, wherein he specifically directed that initiations should continue through the Ritvik (officiating Acharya) system?
This system is not speculative—it is supported by Srila Prabhupad’s own words, lectures, letters, and books, through which he continues to guide us. The Ritvik representatives act as Shiksha Gurus, never claiming the position of Diksha Guru, but faithfully executing Srila Prabhupad’s desire.
I humbly urge you not to persist in a path that may lead to misunderstanding or misrepresentation of Srila Prabhupad’s instructions. Such persistence, especially if driven by personal motivations, can result in spiritual offense at the lotus feet of our beloved Acharya.
Let us all strive to sincerely follow his directives with humility and gratitude, for that is the true path to spiritual success.
Hare Krishna.
🙏🙏- thumb_up — 5
Ram Krishna Hari 1 year agoIf Shrila Prabhupada earlier told someone to become Guru after his departure but later on he found out that nobody is pure so Ritvik system is good,
If that is the case then Shrila Prabhupada can not be called as "Patit Pavan " Because he could not purify single fallen soul by his preaching efforts.
In another words Ritvik system proves that Shrila Prabhupada was a impotent preacher, his mission was a big failure so he is the only one Pure devotee for next 10000 years for giving Diksha.
This is how
Ritviks "Ati Bhakti Chorer lakshan "
Although they say that they are the only true followers of Shrila Prabhupada but they are Blasphaming Shrila Prabhupada in the the worst possible way.
Because Shrila Prabhupada himself said several times, "by all these preaching efforts if I can turn even one single soul into pure devotee, i will consider my mission is successful. "
And these foolish Ritviks are saying Shrila Prabhupada didn't find anyone pure so he remained sole diksha guru and appointed only Ritviks for next 10000 years.
Indeed Shrila Shukdev Goswami is glorifying Shrila Prabhupada in the Amal Puran Shrimad Bhagwatam 2.4.18
This verse is dedicated to Shrila Prabhupada by Shrila Shukdev Goswami
For his ability to purify fallen souls.
My dear Ritvik friends please open your blinded intoxicated eyes and read this verse with submissive heart.
Otherwise go to hell for not calling Shrila Prabhupada
"Patit Paavan "- thumb_up — 2
- Arindam Mitra 1 year agoWhat I have understood is that these Ritviks follow a rascal "Krishnakant Desai". If someone willfully closes his eyes, nothing can be done for such a person.
These Ritwik mayawadis and their followers are like just that 🙏🏻🙏🏻
- Dr Dilip Kumar 1 year agoThe Knowlege that every ISKCON devotee should know about Ritviksm.
What is Ritwik acharya.
Prabhupada meeting with GBC on 28th May 1977. (Questions regarding initiation after Him)
His Last will dated 6th June 1977.
Prabhupada letter to all GBC on 9th July 1977.
See them coming one after another and what connections are in them.
https://youtu.be/k7Z2xcQqL4g 
Arunmozhi 1 year agoMadhupandit dasa authorise iskcon Bangalore gbc. Iskcon Bangalore gbc appointed madhupandit dasa as ritvik representative. Where is Srila Prabhupada order. Where is adhikar. What madhupandit dasa ask for order of prabhupada for diksha guru he fail to show for ritvik.- thumb_up — 5
Ayushi Shah 1 year agoOk let's assume both of them don't have order which is more riskier - Surrendering to Srila Prabhupada through ineligible via media or Surrendering to an ineligible guru altogether? If you sincerely desire Srila Prabhupada will accept you as his disciple even if the intermediate process is defective because he is more merciful than lord (Bhaav Grahi Janardhana) himself but if you surrender to ineligible self made Guru who will deliver you because clearly not a single guru at ISKCON right now is claiming to take you back to godhead : )- thumb_up — 1
- DD 1 year ago@AyushiShah-b9w Prabhuji what you have spoken is true. However, in Srila Prabhupada's own words (for his sincere disciples present at that time), Srila Prabhupada on multiple occasions called them Pure Vaisnavas.
Now whose verdict to accept: "Srila Prabhupada" OR "Follower of ineligible self appointed Ritwiks"? - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@DD-su5htSrila Prabhupada liked Hansdutta Maharaj very much he is in support of the Ritvik system....Tamal Krishna Maharaj in the openly confessed that Srila Prabhupada never asked anyone to become Diksha guru...whom do you wish to follow
- Suvyakta Narasimha Dasa 1 year ago@DD-su5ht Hare Krishna. There are 2 kinds of pure personalities. One kind is pure who doesn't do anything impure. Another kind is one who can purify others. Srila Prabhupada's disciples, as long as they are following all the rules & regulations, are the first kind. An uttamadhikari is of the latter kind. It requires the uttamadhikari devotee who can purify others to become a guru. The other kind, though pure, can't purify others - he can't become guru. Srila Prabhupada was referring to his devotees to be the first kind, who are following the rules strictly, & not the kind that will purify others & take them back to Godhead.
- Gerold Bendix 1 year ago😂😂😂
Better than following Jayapataka, for example, he can't even speak, but you can become one of his saliva wipers, if he tries to.
- Sada Hari Das 1 year agoSrila Prabhupada made many statements throughout his books, lectures, and letters that strongly emphasize the need for a living guru, which directly refutes the posthumous “ritvik” initiation idea. Here are several direct quotes from Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada that clearly contradict the ritvik philosophy:
1. Guru must be living – not a matter of rubber-stamping
“Guru means one who is accepted as guru must be accepted as good as God. That is the injunction of the shastra. That means he must be a living personality. Not that ‘Guru is not present, so let me find out a dead guru. And I become guru.’ No. That is not the process.”
— Morning Walk, Los Angeles, May 13, 1973
2. Initiation must be from a present, living spiritual master
“One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorized by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksha-vidhana.”
— Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.8.54, purport
3. Disciplic succession is continued by living devotees
“It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the shastric injunctions. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.”
— Cc. Adi 1.35, purport
4. Devotee must accept a living guru
“Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he's ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.”
— Conversation, October 28, 1975, Nairobi
5. The guru must physically be there to give diksha
“Dīkṣā means divya-jñānaṁ kṣipati — to give the divya-jñāna, transcendental knowledge. That is the duty of guru. And the disciple must admit that he’ll do anything for the guru. If he cannot do that, then he is not fit for being initiated.”
— Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.15, Honolulu, June 4, 1975
6. Books are not a replacement for the living guru
“Books are not sufficient. If books were sufficient for knowledge, then there was no need of a spiritual master. Therefore the Vedic injunction is: ‘tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet’ — one must go to a guru.”
— Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 4.34, Bombay, January 9, 1973
7. He expected his disciples to become gurus
“All my disciples will take the legacy. If you want, you can also take it. Sacrifice everything. I—one—may not live, but still the movement will go on. If you follow the previous acaryas, one after another, then there is no difficulty.”
— Room Conversation, April 6, 1975, Mayapur
Now some persons have come out with the idea that there is no need of any guru. They are saying, ‘We can take initiation from Srila Prabhupada through ritvik.’ This is nonsense. Srila Prabhupada never said this. He wrote in his books that one must accept a bona fide guru, and not only one guru — he must accept siksa-guru, diksa-guru, and so many gurus. If the devotee is sincere, then Krishna will arrange for him to have the association of such bona fide gurus.
Why did Srila Prabhupada himself take initiation? Why did he accept a guru? And why did he give initiation to others? This ritvik idea is against guru-tattva. It is totally against all sastra, all teachings of the acaryas, and even against the desires of Srila Prabhupada himself.
Some say, ‘We are only followers of Srila Prabhupada. We do not need any other guru.’ This is sahajiya-vada. Guru is one, but if one is bona fide, Krishna will arrange for him to have a siksa-guru. Why did Srila Prabhupada write in his books that one must take shelter of a living guru? Was he joking? No, he was giving siddhanta.
“Books are not sufficient... one must go to a guru.”
(Bhagavad-gita 4.34, Bombay, Jan 9, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada
Srila Prabhupada wanted his disciples to become gurus. Otherwise, why would he have said, ‘I want all of you to become gurus and deliver the whole world’? Why would he train them in tattva-jnana, in Vaisnava behavior, and in deity worship? Did he not give them brahmana initiation? Then why are they rejecting that order now?
“All my disciples will take the legacy. If you want, you can also take it.”
(Room Conversation, April 6, 1975, Mayapur)
Srila Prabhupada
That [ritvik] letter was written for a temporary period while Srila Prabhupada was very ill. It was not meant to establish a new system after his disappearance. If it were, why didn’t he write it in his will or repeat it again and again in his lectures?
They say Srila Prabhupada is their guru and no need of another guru. This is against bhakti. This is against his desire. Guru must be physically present to give personal guidance. Otherwise, the heart will dry up.
“Not that ‘Guru is not present, so let me find out a dead guru.’ No. That is not the process.”
(Los Angeles, May 13, 1973) Srila Prabhupada- Ayushi Shah 1 year agoIf I depart, there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you through my books and my orders. I will always remain with you in that way."
(Srila Prabhupada conversation, May 5, 1977)
As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence. If you are chanting Hare Krishna there, and following my instructions, reading the books, taking only Krishna prasadam etc., then there is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Caitanya, whose mission I am humbly trying to push on."
(Srila Prabhupada letter, June 30, 1974)
But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only with this spiritual connection."
(Srila Prabhupada letter, November 13, 1969) - Ayushi Shah 1 year agoOne has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.
(SB 3.31.48)
What we have heard from the spiritual master, that is living.
(Lecture Excerpt – Los Angeles, January 13, 1969)
In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.…You may please me the most by reading my books and following the instructions therein and by becoming fully Krishna Conscious in this life time.
(Letter to: Bahurupa Bombay 74-11-22) - Ayushi Shah 1 year agoI have instructed everything in my books.
(Letter to: Dina Dayala Mayapur 76-02-25)
So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavor. Whether I am present or not present, it doesn’t matter.
(Arrival Speech – May 17, 1977, Vrndavana)
If I depart, there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you through my books and my orders. I will always remain with you in that way.”
(Back To Godhead vol.13 01/02, 1978) - Ayushi Shah 1 year agoJuly 9th letter has the word "Henceforward" where is it said that it's temporary.....
Where does Srila Prabhupada mentions he is going to be "Dead"
Oct 28 1975 that you quoted - A guru can become Guru when he is ordered by his Guru. That's all. "Otherwise nobody can become Guru" -- Where is the order????
Where does Prabhupada writes a Diksha Guru must be present physically to give Divya Gyaan - transcendental knowledge?
"All my disciples will take my legacy" where did Prabhupada writes " All my disciples will become only Diksha Guru and not Siksha Guru"
Where is it written that the personal guidance can be taken only from Diksha Guru present physically and not through his institution comprising of Siksha Gurus and his books and his instructions?? - Sada Hari Das 1 year ago@AyushiShah-b9w madam you know so much
So please do one thing, kindly find and present any evidence about ritvik initiation in any Prabhupada’s lecture, purports or from any Gaudiya Madhva sampraday philosophy (because we are from there only na)
Your big big guns are still searching, maybe you could throw some light on it - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@sadaharidasthere are enough proofs which Ritviks are presenting again and again , july 9th letter, july 19th room conversation, where are burnt recorded tapes of Srila Prabhupada, why isn't GBC answering to that since ages!!! there's no use of presenting anything to people who want to close their eyes and pretend to be blind.....
You don't worry but I am very much receptive and open to truth, if you/your institution is able to produce a "SINGLE" direct (non-ambiguous) order from Srila Prabhupada to become a Diksha Guru I will accept it as it is and will switch from Ritvik system....
Where is the mention of delivery of Gayatri Mantra through recorded tapes in Srila Prabhupada's lectures, purports or Gaudiya Madva philosophy but you all still believe it because it doesn't affect your institution's aim of name fame power and money..
Ok leave the order to become Diksha Guru aside....Diksha Guru means who can take all the sins....tell me a name of a "SINGLE" self-made ISKCON Guru who is claiming to take away all our sins and taking us back to godhead??????
Stop getting fooled or fooling people!! (whichever of the two you are doing time to stop)
Hare Krishna 🙇🏻♀️ - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@sadaharidas who wants to become Diksha Guru "US" who wants name fame power and money "US" but who will wash our sins "That Srila Prabhupada will do" who will take us back to godhead "Srila Prabhupada"
Radhanath Swamiji in his initiation says "I give you so and so name on behalf of Srila Prabhupada" but what are Ritviks "Mayavadi" who is the Diksha Guru "Radhanath Swamiji"....
Heights of Hypocrisy!!!! - Sada Hari Das 1 year ago@AyushiShah-b9w
Everyone wants to become diksha guru?
That nonsense is fed with your minds madam. Go to any iskcon temple and see what they are doing. Only negative thoughts you guys have
Have you ever seen Prabhupada ? No
But you guys don’t even think twice to blaspheme these devotees who gave their lives for Prabhupada.
Another fool from photo touch diksa gang - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@sadaharidas it's funny how you are quoting things which were never said....in your initial comments also you quoted things which Prabhupada never said and yet again you are quoting things which I never said where did I write that "Everyone wants to become guru"....
Sir, it was you who started commenting negative things about Ritviks and not us.... It very much explains who has negative thoughts only...
I very much go to ISKCON and I am very much aware of what's going on there ....Have you ever visited any of the Hare Krishna Movement/ISKCON Banglore/VCM centers? No but you still have an opinion about what we are being fed with!!
Dedicated their lives for Srila Prabhupada? Then why do they have so much issue in accepting Srila Prabhupada as the Diksha Guru why they want to take his position when he never ordered to do so?
Why are you beating around the bush answer my 4 simple questions:
1. Why do you believe that Gayatri Mantra was given on tape when there is no mention of it in any of Srila Prabhupada's lectures or purports but ask for proofs in lectures and purport for Ritvik System
2. Where is the direct order of Srila Prabhupada to become Diksha Guru
2. Diksha Guru means one who initiates by taking away all the past Karmas/Sins, name one Guru in ISKCON who claims to take away all the past Karmas/Sins and take you back to godhead
3. When Radhanath Swamiji is a Diksha Guru and you all are so much against the Ritvik system why does he say "On behalf of Srila Prabhupada" when giving the initiated names
Dedicated their lives, Sir what delusions are you living in?? why isn't Amogh Lila Prabhu banned yet when he clearly made fun of Sri Archa Vigraha of Srila Prabhupada why is there no apology from his side yet, your GBC is so ok with disrespect of HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada??
Gave their lives? Why are they burning his recorded tapes? Why are they editing his books? By not following Srila Prabhupada's order they are doing the biggest disservice to Srila Prabhupada!!
And when I say they I don't mean everyone single soul at ISKCON, I am sure many good people are being forced/trapped or are getting thrown out for not following the authorities....our problem is with your GBC and every self made Guru at ISKCON who is ok with disrespect of and taking place of our Spiritual Master HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada without authority! 🙏🏻 - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@sadaharidas who has written this comment "Ritviks are living under stone" who is blaspheming here? Have you seen all the Ritviks and their dedication towards Srila Prabhupada? No but you will blashpheme because that's what nonsense you are being fed with!
If you look at the entire picture without any bias Ritviks are the ones fighting for Srila Prabhupada whereas your GBC and Gurus want positions for themselves ( please question yourself in this fight what Ritviks have to gain and what your Gurus and GBC are gaining your conscience will have the answer).... that's what real dedication/giving life for Srila Prabhupada means!
Hari Bol - Sada Hari Das 1 year ago@AyushiShah-b9w
Still waiting for the answer of main question
Kindly refer any ritvik initiation system from vedas
Prabhupada always gave reference. Or do you guys think he deviated from it? - Ayushi Shah 1 year agoMy respects to every single "Vaishnav" the NOI very much outlines how a devotee should be treated, it instructs to even respect the ones who has name of lord on their tongue....
Our objection is against the blashphemers and disobeyers of HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada! And you indeed should also raise questions against the same where is your comment on Amogh Lila Prabhu's video? I very much saw his complete video he could had drived the point home without making fun of Shri Archa Vigraha of Srila Prabhupada, are you also ok with Srila Prabhupada's disrespect?🙏🏻🙏🏻 - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@sadaharidasstill waiting for an answer to 4 questions? : )
You will get the answer to your question if you are able to answer the 4 questions....where is reference of giving gayatri mantra on tape in vedas? You think Prabhupada deviated from Vedas? Very much yes because he is an empowered aacharya he can make temporary changes to Vedas based on time place and circumstances....And when I say temporary that means until the next empowered Aacharya comes (and not self made Gurus)....you have questions on him being empowered? You have questions on existence of July 9th letter? You have to deny that Ritvik system wasn't working when Prabhupada was physically present? You have questions on his decisions, abilities and capabilities as an empowered aacharya????? Do you think you have the capabilities to go through all the Vedas and counter Prabhupada that Prabhupada you haven't given any reference??? Vedas also recommended 64 rounds of chanting Prabhupada reduced it to 16??? Do you have doubts on that too??
Now answer the 4 MAIN questions: )) - Ayushi Shah 1 year agoHow surprising it is that you are totally ok with a system that has got 0 proofs but questioning the system which has got atleast some proofs...
You are getting so offended at disrespect of some self made Gurus but you are totally ok with the blasphemy of Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada who literally has taken so much of pain to give us Krishna Consciousness....
All the information/mis-information, backers and offenders of Srila Prabhupada are in front of you but if you still want to ignore the facts and act blind to them I can't help more....
Hare Krishna 🙏🏻 - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@sadaharidasif you still have doubts on the authority of Srila Prabhupada more references for you:
No. *Tradition*, religion they are all *material*. They are also all designations.
Ref : SP Room conversation, 13th March 1975 Tehran
Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, “Both the Supreme Personality of Godhead and My spiritual master, Īśvara Purī, are *completely independent*. Therefore neither the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead nor that of Īśvara Purī is *subject to any Vedic rules and regulations*.
CC Madhya 10.137 - Ayushi Shah 1 year agoFrom the two quotes above, it is evident that an empowered spiritual master is not bound by material or mundane rules and regulations. Srila Prabhupada clearly states that tradition is also material.
Furthermore, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu affirms that an empowered spiritual master is not obligated to adhere to mundane conventions. Therefore, as an empowered Acharya, Srila Prabhupada had the authority to establish the Ritvik system—even if it is not found in traditional practice. - Sada Hari Das 1 year ago@AyushiShah-b9w arey mata ji mahaan
Kindly bring some exact source that says Prabhupada gave explicit instruction to place ritvik initiation for eternity
Now you guys will say that Prabhupada’s letter is the proof.
But I guess you haven’t seen the compiler of the letter and several other devotees totally disagreeing with what you guys are believing
Now again where is the proof that sadhu, shastra and guru’s words are matching. No ritvik initiation mentioned anywhere. Because if it doesn’t then there is no validity of that claim
Scriptures bhi padhte ho aplog ya bas faults in iskcon by hdg mpp padhte ho? 😂 - Sada Hari Das 1 year ago@AyushiShah-b9w and if you guys ritviks are true followers of prabhupada then kindly let me know why you guys don’t come together in a single organisation then talk
You all are bunch of deviants nothing more - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@sadaharidasprabhuji mahaan go to ISKCON Banglore, Gupt Vrindavan Dhaam, Hare Krishna Movement Mumbai youtube pages watch their video ab aapke liye itne saare videos ka description comment me kaise likhu.... Prabhupada ke khud ke signature hai us letter par ab aapke liye Prabhupada swayam aakar validity dekar jaaye us letter ki....isse jyada explicit proofs aur kaha se de jab aapke GBC ne hi recordings jala di hai (aapke Tamal Krishna Maharaj the very compiler of letter and GBC has put the pressure to burn tapes watch the confessions of personal assistant of Srila Prabhupada)
Jo aapko Tamal Krishna Maharaj ke disagreement waale videos dikhaye jaa rahe hai wo bhi edited hai watch his original video where he himself is agreeing to Ritvik system....who are the other devotees denying the one who has become Gurus themselves??
Aapke GBC me itna bhi Krishna ka fear nahi hai ki jis MahaBhagavat ne Krishna Consciousness preach karne ke itne efforts liye hai unke tapes jala rahe hai books edit kar rahe hai devotees ke confessions edit kar rahe hai
Humare paas ek letter ek room conversation to hai aapke proof non-existent kyu hai? Chalo maan bhi lo ki jitne proofs Ritviks de rahe hai wo aapke liye sufficient nahi hai to aapke proofs kaha hai you haven't answered a single question out of 4? And let's say you aren't able to produce a single explicit order from Srila Prabhupada supporting Guru system and you don't want to believe the proofs what Ritviks are providing? Which is more riskier? Surrendering to Srila Prabhupada through ineligible via or Surrendering to ineligible guru altogether... If you have sincere desire Srila Prabhupada will still accept you as his disciple irrespective of the eligibility of the via media because he is more merciful than lord himself who is Bhaav Grahi Janardhana but agar aap ineligible Guru ko surrender karte ho who will deliver you in that case????
Aap brain and common sense bhi use karte ho ya sirf Amogh Lila Prabhuji ko hi follow karte ho? - Ayushi Shah 1 year agoThis is the link of original vs edited confession of Tamal Krishna Maharaj (remove the spaces and paste it on Google). Use a bit of brain where the frame is cropped where the words and lipsing are not in sink....Hare Krishna 🙏🏻
https: // youtu . be /0V4RWIVlWGY ? si=eh5B_eRMgO5y3bYi - Sada Hari Das 1 year ago@AyushiShah-b9w😂😂😂
Do you want to see the full video?
How gullible and naive guys are these ritviks 😂😂😂 - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@sadaharidassure Prabhuji I am very much open to hear what you are calling the original video. Although there are enough evidences of Tamal Krishna Maharaj himself changing his statements but I don't want to go there....
But before that proof just to ensure ISKCON people aren't naive (otherwise there's no point of believing a proof shared by another naive) can you please answer my 4 main questions Prabhu, it will be your mercy on fallen condition naive soul🙏🏻🙏🏻 - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@sadaharidas
Indeed Naive and Gullible Prabhu!
Complete excerpt from Hari Sauri Dairy 7th March 1976:
-------------------------------------------
Prabhupāda surprised me when I entered his room at about 11 a.m. this morning to prepare for his massage. For almost half an hour he preached to me, explaining that he wants all his disciples to become gurus. Each of us is to make thousands of disciples just as he has and in this way spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world.
He didn’t seem to be speaking in general terms either, but directly to me. He seemed very enlivened at the prospect of spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this way.
In the evening, when the GBC men filed into his room to make their report about their day’s meeting, he brought up the same topic, before discussing their resolutions. He asked me to explain to everyone what he had said earlier. But when I hesitated, he did it himself, repeating in brief this principle of becoming guru.
He told them that just as he had made thousands of disciples he wants each one of them to make ten thousand each. He encouraged them to become increasingly more qualified and rise to the position of being spiritual masters. He stressed that this can be done only if they maintain spiritual strength by strictly following the four regulative principles and chanting the prescribed number of rounds.
------------------------------------------
"He encouraged them to become increasingly more qualified and rise to the position of being spiritual masters."
Any sane/intelligent man who reads this can conclude that Prabhupada is expressing his desire that all his disciples to become guru and is encouraging them to become more and more qualified to attain that position.....that clearly doesn't mean he has ordered someone to become "Guru" because he see that person fit to become "Guru"
Read the very next day's dairy
Excerpt from Hari Sauri Dairy 8th March 1976:
---------------------------------
In the early morning Prabhupāda called Tamal Krishna Goswami into his room. He told him that Madhudviṣa Swami should be made GBC Vice Chairman for the year and that Gargamuni Swami should be given GBC responsibility.
Tamal Krishna Mahārāja replied that the GBC had already considered Gargamuni, but they decided not to appoint him because he does not regularly chant his rounds. Some of Gargamuni’s men have left him, complaining that his devotional standard is not strict.
---------------------------------------------
So Gargamuni Prabhu wasn't Chanting his rounds regularly and he was very much Prabhupada's disciple and if we use your logic/clipped videos he should have become spiritual master that too Diksha Guru (and not Siksha Guru or something) but dairy clearly said on 7th March -- "He encouraged them to become increasingly more qualified and rise to the position of being spiritual masters. *He stressed that this can be done only if they maintain spiritual strength by strictly following the four regulative principles and chanting the prescribed number of rounds.*" - Ayushi Shah 1 year agoSame goes with Satsvarupa Prabhu's reading, the video has been clipped to suit the needs:
Excerpts from 5th Sept 1969 Hamburg Vyas Puja Lecture:
-------------------------------
Spiritual master is not that a particular man is spiritual master. Spiritual master is a truth. So what is that truth? The truth is saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam. The whole world is in the blaze of material pangs, threefold miseries. *And a person who is authorized to deliver people from that material pangs, he is called spiritual master.*
So the spiritual master's duty is to save the living entities who are so much embarrassed by the forest fire. That is the duty of spiritual master. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka.
So spiritual master means he must be just like the cloud. How it is possible? It is possible. It is possible in this way, provided he follows the disciplic succession of spiritual master. Then it is possible. He must inherit the power from the superior source. Then it is possible that by his teaching, by his lessons, the forest fire which is burning within our heart, it can be extinguished, and the person who receives such spiritual instruction bona fidely, he becomes satisfied. This is the process. So,
saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-
trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam
prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya
vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **
Now, this spiritual master's succession is not very difficult. Of course, my students, they offer me so much respect, but all these respects are due to my spiritual master. I am nothing. I am just like peon. Just like peon delivers one letter. He is not responsible for what is written in that letter. He is not responsible for what is written in that letter. He simply delivers. But a peon's duty is that he must sincerely carry out the order of the postmaster and deliver the letter to the proper person. That is their duty. Similarly, this paramparā system is like that. Every one of us should become a spiritual master because the world is in blazing fire.
Spiritual master is not a new invention. It is simply following the orders of the spiritual master. So all my students present here who are feeling so much obliged... I am also obliged to them because they are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master next. And what is their duty? Whatever you are hearing from me, whatever you are learning from me, you have to distribute the same in toto without any addition or alteration. Then all of you become the spiritual master. That is the science of becoming spiritual master
--------------------------
"" Every one of you should be spiritual master next. And what is their duty? Whatever you are hearing from me, whatever you are learning from me, you have to distribute the same in toto without any addition or alteration. Then all of you become the spiritual master. That is the science of becoming spiritual master ""
Again any sane/intelligent man who reads this can tell what Prabhupada means by all of you become the spiritual master (Siksha Guru) and what process Prabhupada is telling to become spiritual master - *Whatever you are hearing from me, whatever you are learning from me, you have to distribute the same in toto without any addition or alteration.*
The video that you shared is from ISKCON Sankhari - the clipping of video itself is the proof of alternation of Prabhupada's teaching why the books are being edited when Prabhupada clearly asked to make no addition or alternation.... - Ayushi Shah 1 year agoLike this I can go one by one on each clip in that the video you have shared Prabhu and prove how they have been clipped to suit the needs of self made Gurus but no point like I said there's no solution for people who are closing their eyes and pretending to be blind....
May lord Krishna and Srila Prabhupada bless you with intelligence to discriminate what is right and what is wrong 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Hare Krishna 🙏🏻🙏🏻 - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago@sadaharidashahahaha🤣🤣🤣🤣
How funny it is that none of your points are valid, you got no answer to one single question out of 4, the video you have shared I have very much given proof that how it is clipped but you are still calling Ritvik System as "Mayavad" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Please continue being blind and delusional!! The world does need some cheaters and blinds/cheated/Andh-Bhakta to follow them otherwise Kaliyug apna effect kaise dikhayega.... Prabhupada always said surrender with your intelligence don't surrender your intelligence....All the very best following the cheaters!!🤣🤣
Charulata Thakur 1 year agoSrila Prabhupad has mentioned hundreds of times about the Guru Parampara system in his purports . In NONE of his purports has he ever mentioned about the Rithwik system of disciple succession. Srila Prabhupada would very, very much want his followers to follow what is written in his purports. Srila Prabhupada ki Jai.- thumb_up — 7
- Ayushi Shah 1 year agoIf I depart, there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you through my books and my orders. I will always remain with you in that way.”
(Back To Godhead vol.13 01/02, 1978)
Where are the destroyed recordings of Srila Prabhupada why isn't GBC has ever answered that....why are changes being made to translations and purports written by Srila Prabhupada in the name of rectifying grammatical errors?- thumb_up — 3
- Ayushi Shah 1 year ago*Chain is broken when there are false spiritual masters. Otherwise it is not broken. (Morning Walk, 2/9/76)*
- thumb_up — 2
- Saroj Kumar 1 year agoHare Krishna
You are biased and motivated and hence, don’t want to accept the ritvik system which has been evidently established by Srila Prabhupad. What’s your problem to accept what Srila Prabhupad in his 9th July letter ordered to continue the process of initiation through Rithvik ( officiating Aacharya) system. And, moreover, this process is full proof as Srila Prabhupad didn’t leave any gaps and everything is there in his lectures, books and letters to be adopted by Ritviks as Shiksha Guru. Please don’t commit offence at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupad and don’t be persistent just to protect your manipulative selfish arrangement. This will not help you Spritually and not obeying the instructions of Srila Prabhupad sincerely and politely is the cause of falling down.
Hare Krishna 🙏🙏- thumb_up — 3
- Darshan S D 1 year agoWanting something is different from ordering the same thing....every guru wishes his disciples to succeed...but was there an order from srila Prabhupada? Please show the order and then talk about these things
- Aa 10 months agoYou missed out the important word "bona fide"
Everything thus far has proven the present GBC guru system to be a deviation.
Josh Wulf (Sitapati dasa) 1 year agoListening to this in 2025, it sounds like they destroyed the tapes with the clear instructions of the Ācārya, then put Satsvarupa up to getting the tape they needed — leading to a contradictory and confusing picture. What is clear is that "successor ācāryas" and their sycophants were liars, conditioned souls, and actively collaborated in a conspiracy to usurp Śrīla Prabhupāda's movement.- thumb_up — 11
karnamrta krishna dasa 1 year agoNot only Tapes Prabhu, they destroyed literally everything! Edited books, Deity worship standards compromised, Fallen gurus and Gurukul diasters- thumb_up — 2
nofugz 1 year agoSo now you rely on "missing" evidence which nobody has ever seen? What kind of wishful thinking is this, mental gymnastics overload. Pull your head out of ignorance and see the facts from available evidence. Prabhupada appointed Ritvik-acharyas on July 9th. That's a new phrase not mentioned in any Shastra, so we must see how Prabhupada himself defined "Ritvik-acharya". Well in May 28th convo, he clearly defined it as a formality in physical presence of Guru. Still if you have doubts, because it is not clear from his letters etc., then we must go to Shastra (and not invent missing tapes). Nowhere in Prabhupada's books is this system of initiation promoted. We can not ascertain post-samadhi ritvik system from his July 9th letter alone (as i stated), nor can we see any prescedent for it occuring in our sampradaya before (or any bonafide sampradaya for that matter), nor is it mentioned in scriptures. So POST-SAMADHI Ritvik system is indeed BOGUS.- thumb_up — 1
- karnamrta krishna dasa 1 year ago@nofugz8939😂😂😂😂
Another bogus chela has come here...
𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐁𝐮𝐫𝐝𝐞𝐧 𝐨𝐟 𝐏𝐫𝐨𝐨𝐟 𝐋𝐢𝐞𝐬 𝐨𝐧 𝐈𝐒𝐊𝐂𝐎𝐍.
Explicit Written Instructions
Prabhupada’s July 9th, 1977 Letter outlines the Ritvik system:
• He appointed ritviks to initiate on his behalf.
• Nowhere did he say this system should end with his passing.
• He never explicitly authorized any of these ritviks (or anyone else) to become diksha gurus after his departure.
Counter-defense: "He said many things verbally."
Rebuttal: In Vedic tradition, and particularly in Srila Prabhupada’s own legal and managerial dealings, written orders take precedence over recollections of oral conversations, which can be misremembered or misrepresented.
The Burden of Proof Lies on ISKCON
They altered the system. Therefore:
• The burden of scriptural and historical proof lies on those who claim Prabhupada did authorize post-samadhi diksha gurus.
• Where is the explicit instruction stating the July 9th Ritvik system was to be temporary?
Answer: There is none.
Srila Prabhupada, in his final institutional instruction on initiation, the 𝐉𝐮𝐥𝐲 𝟗, 𝟏𝟗𝟕𝟕 𝐥𝐞𝐭𝐭𝐞𝐫, 𝐢𝐦𝐩𝐥𝐞𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐚 𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐯𝐢𝐤 𝐬𝐲𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐦 where certain senior disciples were to act on his behalf to initiate new devotees.
This is:
𝐅𝐨𝐫𝐦𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐰𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐭𝐞𝐧
• 𝐈𝐧𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐭𝐮𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐝𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐫𝐢𝐛𝐮𝐭𝐞𝐝
• 𝐍𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐫 𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐜𝐢𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐝
• 𝐍𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐫 𝐚𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐝
• 𝐍𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐫 𝐭𝐢𝐦𝐞-𝐥𝐢𝐦𝐢𝐭𝐞𝐝
This system was not a casual or private opinion. It was:
• 𝐒𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐭𝐨 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐆𝐁𝐂𝐬 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐓𝐞𝐦𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐢𝐝𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐬
• 𝐒𝐢𝐠𝐧𝐞𝐝 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐀𝐩𝐩𝐫𝐨𝐯𝐞𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐒𝐫𝐢𝐥𝐚 𝐏𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐡𝐮𝐩𝐚𝐝𝐚
• 𝐃𝐢𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐦𝐢𝐧𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐬𝐞𝐜𝐫𝐞𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐲
• 𝐑𝐞𝐢𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐚𝐠𝐚𝐢𝐧 𝐨𝐧 𝐉𝐮𝐥𝐲 𝟏𝟏 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐉𝐮𝐥𝐲 𝟏𝟗
𝐓𝐡𝐮𝐬, 𝐭𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐰𝐚𝐬 𝐒𝐫𝐢𝐥𝐚 𝐏𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐡𝐮𝐩𝐚𝐝𝐚’𝐬 𝐥𝐚𝐬𝐭 𝐫𝐞𝐜𝐨𝐫𝐝𝐞𝐝 𝐢𝐧𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐭𝐮𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐥 𝐝𝐢𝐫𝐞𝐜𝐭𝐢𝐯𝐞 𝐨𝐧 𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐬.
So here's the central challenge to ISKCON:
Where is the equally clear, written, formal instruction from Srila Prabhupada that replaced this ritvik system?
𝐖𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐢𝐬 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐥𝐞𝐭𝐭𝐞𝐫, 𝐝𝐨𝐜𝐮𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭, 𝐨𝐫 𝐝𝐢𝐫𝐞𝐜𝐭𝐢𝐯𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭:
• 𝐓𝐞𝐫𝐦𝐢𝐧𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐬 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐯𝐢𝐤 𝐬𝐲𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐦 𝐚𝐟𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐩𝐡𝐲𝐬𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐝𝐞𝐩𝐚𝐫𝐭𝐮𝐫𝐞?
• 𝐀𝐮𝐭𝐡𝐨𝐫𝐢𝐳𝐞𝐬 𝐚𝐧𝐲 𝐨𝐟 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐯𝐢𝐤𝐬 𝐨𝐫 𝐆𝐁𝐂 𝐦𝐞𝐦𝐛𝐞𝐫𝐬 𝐭𝐨 𝐛𝐞𝐜𝐨𝐦𝐞 𝐟𝐮𝐥𝐥-𝐟𝐥𝐞𝐝𝐠𝐞𝐝 𝐝𝐢𝐤𝐬𝐡𝐚 𝐠𝐮𝐫𝐮𝐬?
• 𝐄𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐛𝐥𝐢𝐬𝐡𝐞𝐬 𝐚 𝐧𝐞𝐰 𝐩𝐫𝐨𝐜𝐞𝐬𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐬𝐞𝐥𝐞𝐜𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐚𝐩𝐩𝐫𝐨𝐯𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐩𝐨𝐬𝐭-𝐬𝐚𝐦𝐚𝐝𝐡𝐢 𝐠𝐮𝐫𝐮𝐬?
𝐓𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐢𝐬 𝐧𝐨𝐧𝐞. 𝐍𝐨𝐭 𝐨𝐧𝐞 𝐝𝐨𝐜𝐮𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐞𝐱𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐬.
________________________________________
NO DOCUMENTED SUCCESSION = NO SUCCESSION
If ISKCON claims a change in authority occurred—i.e., ritviks becoming diksha gurus—they must prove that Srila Prabhupada formally authorized it.
Without such proof, the movement has no legitimate spiritual continuity.
𝐓𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐰𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧:
• 𝐄𝐯𝐞𝐫𝐲 𝐩𝐨𝐬𝐭-𝟏𝟗𝟕𝟕 𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐝𝐨𝐧𝐞 𝐯𝐢𝐚 𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐯𝐢𝐤 𝐢𝐬 𝐮𝐧𝐚𝐮𝐭𝐡𝐨𝐫𝐢𝐳𝐞𝐝.
• 𝐄𝐯𝐞𝐫𝐲 𝐬𝐨-𝐜𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐞𝐝 “𝐠𝐮𝐫𝐮” 𝐟𝐮𝐧𝐜𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐦𝐚𝐥 𝐬𝐮𝐜𝐜𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐢𝐬 𝐬𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐮𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐝𝐢𝐬𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐧𝐞𝐜𝐭𝐞𝐝.
• 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐝𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐨𝐟 𝐈𝐒𝐊𝐂𝐎𝐍’𝐬 𝐜𝐮𝐫𝐫𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐠𝐮𝐫𝐮 𝐬𝐲𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐦 𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐬 𝐨𝐧 𝐚𝐬𝐬𝐮𝐦𝐩𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧, 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐚𝐮𝐭𝐡𝐨𝐫𝐢𝐳𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧.
𝐀𝐧𝐝 𝐚𝐬𝐬𝐮𝐦𝐩𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐥𝐦 𝐨𝐟 𝐩𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐦𝐩𝐚𝐫𝐚 𝐢𝐬 𝐬𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐮𝐚𝐥 𝐬𝐮𝐢𝐜𝐢𝐝𝐞.
________________________________________
CONCLUSION:
ISKCON changed the system, not the Ritvik camp.
Therefore, ISKCON has the responsibility to show—with explicit, unambiguous, formal documentation—that Srila Prabhupada:
• Authorized the end of ritvik
• Instituted post-samadhi diksha gurus
• Established a system for their selection and qualification
They have never produced this evidence.
Until they do, any attempt to refute Ritvik is nothing more than a speculative assumption, built on oral gossip and institutional inertia—not on guru, sadhu, and shastra.
In spiritual life, assumption is not enough.
Where is the order?
No order = no authority.
No authority = no legitimacy.
And without legitimacy, the whole structure collapses. - karnamrta krishna dasa 1 year ago@nofugz8939Another guru falls down.
👇
DATE: 13 June 2025
Re: LETTER FROM TRIVIKRAM DAS
Dear Prabhus,
Our humble obeisances to all you glorious servants of Shrila Prabhupada. We broke the news first about Trivikram now ex-swami and how he seduced a lady disciple, but that does not mean we like doing this sort of work. Rather, we despise it, but someone has to step forward and keep the pedophiles and sexy grandpas in ISKCON in their places, and the only resort that the honest devotees have is information. And that takes a truthful and honest free press that is not the sort of Communist/cult propaganda that characterizes bureaucratic ISKCON’s horribly slanted ISKCON News site.
Trivikram’s wet tissue apologia is reprinted below. His real problem is that he is trapped within the cult and can’t think for himself. Yep, he needs to go do penance, but he should just go to some lonely spot on the Ganga or Yamuna and sit down tight and chant the holy names of the Supreme Lord. Instead, he is continuing to eat out of the hands of ISKCOn’s several dysfunctional committees and do their bidding. No doubt the old guy worked hard for the ISKCON cult over the years, but he did something really dumb and now it’s payback time for the old ex-swami.
Regarding his generous offer to go get re-initiated, there are devotees in ISKCON that have been “ re-initiated” by this blooped swami of that five or more times. So, unless you are working on some Guiness record, we don’t recommend it. Rather, our advice is to just surrender to Prabhupada and dedicate your life to the teachings and instructions of His Divine Grace. After all, it wasn’t the blooped swamis that founded the ISKCON organization. Common sense says that any follower of the programme given by His Divine Grace is his follower. Yep, the common idea in the cult is that one should shop for a guru like people purchase pet dogs at the pet shop. But that is not Krishna consciousness.
Here is the letter from Trivikram dasa Prabhu:
“See you in Mayapur” =Trivikram dasa
Dear Disciples and Friends:
I write to regretfully inform you that I have broken my vows of sannyasa order, in that I engaged in a sexual relationship with a woman disciple starting earlier this year.
I feel terrible that I have disappointed Srila Prabhupada in this way. Of course I also realize that many of you will be heart broken by this news
This has come to the attention of the GBC Executive Committee, the Guru Services Committee, and Sannyasa Committee which are aware of my actions and are guiding me to rectify my grievous behaviors.
• As a result I have agreed voluntarily on the following:
1. To stop initiating.
2. To give up the sannyasa order of life.
3. I will stay in India, in Mayapur or the Govardhan Retreat Center or some
other similar place, for a minimum of one year to focus on atonement and
purification. During that time, I will increase my spiritual practices,
especially hearing and chanting.
4. I will not give any formal classes, including online classes for a
minimum of one year.
5. After that period is finished my situation will be further reviewed by
the Guru Services Committee.
6. In the meantime, I ask you all to stay in ISKCON, take shelter of Srila
Prabhupada, the GBC, siksa gurus and other senior devotees.
7. If any of you would like, you can be re-initiated by another ISKCON
guru. If you want to do this, I encourage you to do so.
8. Those of you who have been aspiring to be first initiated by me should
take shelter of another ISKCON guru and seek initiation from that devotee as
per ISKCON guidelines.
9. Those who are first initiated by me, and want second initiation, should
develop a relationship with another ISKCON guru and seek second initiation
from them at the appropriate time.
For these two classes (8&9) I will try to be available to give guidance in
an informal way, if you so desire.
10. To those who wish to maintain their relationships with me as disciples,
I advise that, until further notice, they should minimize publicly
displaying their feelings of respect and reverence.
11. In any of the above matters regarding initiations, if you want
clarifications, please contact the Guru Services Committee, who can either
advise you, or guide you to a devotee or devotees who can advise you
further.
I ask that you all to pray for me.
I can not excuse myself from these sins and will need your support going
forward.
Yours sincerely,
Trivikrama Das
Radha Shakti 1 year agoIt is obviously natural while one is alive, but after leaving the body, not anymore. The ritvik conspiracy is childish, you do not mention the fact that even the current Iskcon gurus do initiation from a distance, you do not mention that Prabhupada never said that this will continue after he leaves the body, it is OBVIOUS that while the guru is alive, the disciples initiate through him, obviously. But after he leaves the body, not anymore.- Josh Wulf (Sitapati dasa) 1 year agoWhat's obvious is that JAS and the Zonal Ācāryas are conspirators and conditioned souls.
- thumb_up — 1
rusinana 1 year agoIts is obvious that Rtvik system has nothing to do with being alive or not. Where you get this "obivious" point from? Take your head out of that dark hole and open your eyes.
Only obivious thing is that either you never read Prabhupadas order, or you don't understand what english term "henceforward" means. It doesn't mean "for the time being", it means means "from this time on" or "starting now and continuing into the future."
Examples:
• Henceforth, you are not allowed to enter this area.
→ From now on, you're not allowed in.
• He announced that henceforward, all meetings would be virtual.
→ From this point forward, all meetings will be virtual.
Isn't this meaning of henceforward really obivious to you too? Or you speak some advanced Iskconite english?
Do better my dear Mataji before its too late for you too. Tamal Kṛṣṇa won't come to help you in hell i promise you that.- rusinana 1 year agoIts is obivious that Rtvik system has nothing to do with being alive or not. Where you get this "obivious" point from? Take your head out of that dark hole and open your eyes.
Only obivious thing is that either you never read Prabhupadas order, or you don't understand what english term "henceforward" means. It doesn't mean "for the time being", it means means "from this time on" or "starting now and continuing into the future."
Examples:
• Henceforth, you are not allowed to enter this area.
→ From now on, you're not allowed in.
• He announced that henceforward, all meetings would be virtual.
→ From this point forward, all meetings will be virtual.
Isn't this meaning of henceforward really obivious to you too? Or you speak some advanced Iskconite english?
Do better my dear Mataji before its too late for you too. Tamal Kṛṣṇa won't come to help you in hell i promise you that. - rusinana 1 year agoIn fact Prabhupada said this:
Room Conversation -- April 22, 1977, Bombay:
So everything is there. We have got good shelter all over the world. We have got income. You stick to our principles, follow the... Even if I die suddenly, you'll be able to manage. That's all. That I want. Manage nicely and let the movement go forward. Now arrange. Don't go backward. Be careful. Āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya.
/////
This conversation was during the Rtvik system being active, and Prabhupada clearly says that he has given allready everything, whole system, and even if he dies suddenly we can keep going as it is.
Isn't the understanding from this to any intelligent man, that Prabhupada didn't want to do any changes anymore. So where do you get the "OBVIOUS" opinion that Prabhupada would have wanted Rtvik system to end?
DID PRABHUPADA EVER TELL TO STOP THE RTVIK SYSTEN AT ANY POINT? Answer is no, and you can't show such references. Removes whole validity of your empty arguments.
I can go on forever since the truth and all evidence is in our pocket.
- Radha Shakti 1 year agoBHAKTI SIDDHANT SARASWATI WRITES IN 'TRUE CONCEPTION OF SRI GURU TATTVA' AS FOLLOWES:
"This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today without any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say 'there is no bonafide Guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future,' is an atheistic opinion."- thumb_up — 51
- Saroj Kumar 1 year agoPrabhu ji,
It seems that the facts are being presented in a way that deviates from the clear instructions of Srila Prabhupad. While there may indeed be thousands of sincere devotees, the moment one drifts—knowingly or manipulatively—from what Srila Prabhupad directly ordered, the spiritual foundation begins to erode. In such a case, personal views lose their value, as they are no longer rooted in Guru, Sadhu, and Shastra.
Please let us all remain humble and polite. Relying solely on material logic and intellectual speculation, no matter how eloquently presented, cannot replace the transcendental authority of Srila Prabhupad’s instructions. True spiritual advancement lies in faithfully following the path he has laid out.
Hare Krishna.
🙏🙏- thumb_up — 3
Himangi Singh 1 year agoFirst of all you must clear the conception of "living" and it's applicability to "eternally liberated souls" SRILA PRABHUPADA EXISTS ETERNALLY AND SINCE HE IS LIVING WITH HIS VANI/BOOKS THERE IS NO QUESTION OF BREAK IN PARAMPARA!
"Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places. Similarly, the Spiritual Master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. A Spiritual Master is the principle, not the body. "
Letter to Malati -- Allston, Mass 28 May, 1968
ISKCON is Srila Prabhupada's movement and He being the founder acharya can bring reformations, the very reformation because of which He delivered thousands of westerners which was never possible until He arrived in the West, So If we want to be called an Iskcon devotee we must accept Srila Prabhupada's orders without questioning about what the acharyas in the parampara did or did not do.
But finally it is this very Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada who ordered Srila Prabhupada to be acharya for the movement. When one so much follows the order of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada why can he/she accept His order given to Srila Prabhupada to be the next acharya?
Guru mukha padma vakya chittete koribo aikya! What Srila Prabhupada said with His lotus mouth is the final order for ISKCON!
It is very sad to know that today even without meeting a guru we make him a guru just by his videos and name and fame but to accept SRILA PRABHUPADA as guru we need His physical association. When He was present too He was not able to meet any of His disciples, how then did they accept the initiation and continue to remain His disciples? How much physical association is everyone of todays disciples of guru other than SRILA PRABHUPADA getting with his guru in ISKCON?
It is also sad to know that people have now differentiated between Vani and Vapuh which is against the most important principle of Hare Krishna Movement.
May be some devotees are not able to feel the same potency in Vani and Vapuh, i feel sad for such devotees that they are not able to believe in omnipotency. I shall pray for such souls to experience SRILA PRABHUPADA in His vigraha, in His Vani, in His teachings, instructions, books, kartaal, mridanga, harmonium, garland, mahaprasadam. For me personally, even if my own parents won't be in distress but SRIL APRABHUPADA is always there with His Vani.
Just curious, does the gurus today claiming to be diksha guru be present with each of his disciples in their distress "Physically"?- thumb_up — 5
- DD 1 year ago@himangisingh9128 Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur Maharaja is also existing ETERNALLY ....why not take diksha from HIM directly?
Even Lord Brahma is living...why not take diksha from HIM directly through his picture? He is the originator of Brahma-sampradaya.
Kindly accept the teachings of Sastra and disciplic succession rather than Handful of Self Nominated Ritwiks! (who even themselves have not served Srila Prabhupada directly!)- thumb_up — 5
- Pankaj Jangid 1 year ago@DD-su5ht Hare Krishna, it is not that ritvik means jumping anywhere in the disciplic succession. Srila Prabhupada did authorised this ritvik system of initiation for himself and not others. It means the term ritvik doen not give licence to jump in guru parampara but rather it is a system of initiation by Srila Prabhupada to act as a priest on his(Srila prabhupada; not previous acharya) in discipplic succession.
Still this argument that ritvik means taking diksa from any previous aacharya is being put forward everywhere on social media. It shows how much envious you are.- thumb_up — 4
- DD 1 year ago@PankajJangid-iw2bh Real enviousness is being exhibited by the Ritwik Seniors prabhuji.
Srila Prabhupada never ever once mentioned about Ritwikvaad in his thousands of lectures! During 1977, Srila Prabhupada's physical health was deterriorating, the number of devotees who applied for diksha stemmed worldwide....in such a scenario, in response to Srila Prabhupada's replies, the 9th July 1977 letter was compiled by HH Tamal Krsna Goswami Maharaja. "It is te general etiquette that when Guru is present in this world, His disciples don't accept disciples "(these are Srila Prabhupada's word so please dont speculate here!). Hence, considering Srila Prabhupada's health and the number of disksha to be given world wide, 11 authntic RITWIKs were appointed by Srila Prabhupada himself (Iskcon Bangalore appoints RITWIKs by their own choice which is completely absurd!)...Post 9th July 1977 and prior to 14 Nov 1977, Srila Prabhupada again stated about "Grand-disciples or disciples of disciples".
Now, coming to present, true ENVIOUSNESS has been shown by Ritwik leaders!! Because some of the gurus fell down, Ritwik leaders declared all are fallen...such blasphemy!!!!!!! In fact these Ritwik leaders are actually "either OFFENDERS to Srila Prabhupada OR Cheaters". I am saying so because in a way these Ritwiks are indirectly stating they are more powerful than Srila Prabhupada! "What Srila Prabhupada could not do when HE was physically present and by HIS personal training", the Ritwiks leaders claim to achieve that purity through diksha from Srila Prabhupada's archa vigraha!! Does not this ring any bells in your minds?- thumb_up — 2
- Pankaj Jangid 1 year ago@DD-su5ht hare krishna
it is right that a disciple can't accept disciples in physical presence of his spiritual master. But this does not mean he would accept disciples after guru's departure. Prabhupada also says my all disciples are competent to become future spiritual masters. But this competency does not bring right to give diksa without predecessor aacharya's order. If prabhupada give direct order to any of his disciples he would have told them clearly now you are authorised and you become a guru. I'm not speculating on it, prabhupada himself said it.👇
Prabhupäda: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become äcärya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all äcärya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
Then just show that direct order.
Whatever you are saying about ritviks is absolutely baseless. They are not blasphemimg any guru, only thing is to tell you that if direct order to become guru existed then no guru would have fall down(with order from guru comes proteection also from maya).
Aapki ISKCON GBC ka to kuch nahi jaega but aap Prabhupada authorised ritvik syatem of initations ke against vaisnav aparadh kar loge to isme aap hi foolish ban jaoge.
I know it will not ring bell in you mind(although any sane man can understad these simple facts) because you are Brainwashed by your bogus guruvadi system at its peak. THIS IS CALLED ENVIOUSNESS which is shown by unauthorised guruvadi people.
Hare Krishna🙏- thumb_up — 2
- DD 1 year ago@PankajJangid-iw2bh Let me give you your own medicine (although I am sure you simply want to argue) who is a follower of the greedy bogus Ritwiks (Unauthorized Ritwiks):
1. Give proof that Srila Prabhupada authorized the "Self-selected Ritwiks"?
2. Give Proof that the Ritwiks of Iskcon Bangalore are authorized as per Srila Prabhupada's will or letters.
3. Share some proof wherein Srila BhaktiSiddhanta Thakura Maharaja OR Srila Bhakti Vinoda Thakura Maharaja OR any past Acharya in the disciplic succession vouched for Ritwikism? In none of Srila Prabhupada's books, conversations, letters, etc. has Srila Prabhupada never deviated from teachings of the disciplic succession (Read the ending paragraph of "Bhagvad Gita As It Is" what Srila Prabhupada himself said!)
4. Share a proof or Letter regarding where Srila Prabhupada CLEARLY Stated that "post HIS departure, his disciples should give Diksha directly from Srila Prabhupada's photo or Archa-vigraha" (I want proof, NOT some speculated theory by Ritwiks. )
5. Regarding selection of Guru, whats your take on NOI 1st verse? "A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind’s demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world." Do you refute this in line with Ritwik Mayawad Philosophy?
6. This one is eye-opening if you consider it with open mind: Can you show a proof wherein Srila BhaktiSiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Maharaja asked Srila Prabhupada to give Diksha OR become Diksha Guru? In your words " just show that direct order." Without showing proof, dont waste my time.
7. As per Bogus Ritwiks Srila Prabbhupada could not make a single pure devotee when HE was personally present. In that sense what hope is there that someone will become pure devotee sitting infront of picture of HDG?
8. A spiritual master has all the right whether to accept or reject a disciple. In that sense, how can you assure that the "disciple" suggested by the bogus self-appointed ritwiks is also accepted by Srila Prabhupada? Show proof
If you have "Authentic Proofs" then simply present the proofs. Otherwise my time is important as well as yours. If you simply want to blindly uphold the bogus self-appointed Ritwik mayawadis due to ENVIOUSNESS and INFLATED EGO, then no need to answer. By blaspheming the sincere senior disciples, the Ritwik mayawadis are stead fastily going to a special place along with their blind followers. This is my last message unless you give proper proofs. Hare Krsna🙏🙏 
Achyuta Nanda 1 year ago@DD-su5ht Srila Prabhupada's deities existed even when HDG was present in this material world and Srila Prabhupada approved of this - Read the conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Sampat Kumar Bhattacharya.
It is the self-appointed Gurus and their followers always trying to replace Srila Prabhupada to be a mere observer when they take all the credits and enjoy it. Even lip-service to Srila Prabhupada by glorifying him as Jagadguru is banned in your ISKCON by the law book. We were ready to give up all our temples to integrate the movement and serve together only if Srila Prabhupada was accepted as the Spiritual Master of the whole of ISKCON which he is! This shows who the real cheaters are.- thumb_up — 1
Mukunda 12 months ago@DD-su5ht You must not have been around for very long. Or maybe you have not dwelt on the guru/ritvik subject for very long.
Your argument of "why not taking diksa from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta or Lord Brahma directy?" has been answered authoritatively countless times in the past decades. You have not heard? The answer is vey simple.
It is Srila Prabhupada Himself that established the ritvik system of initiations in His Iskcon starting gradually in 1970.
Therefore, this system is to be used in relation to Him and to Him alone.
Speculating that His July 9th order or directive can be used to take diksa from any of the predecessor acharyas in the sampradaya is only that, a speculation
From 1970 to 1977, Srila Prabhupada gradually delegated the performance of the 4 external functions of the initiation process:
1) identifying the suitable candidates based of the conditions He had established (4 regs and 16 rounds a day for 6 to 12 months), 2) presiding over the fire sacrifice, 3) chanting on the beads and 4) giving the spiritual name.
And, although He delegated these external steps from 1970 to 1977, there was no doubt in everybody's mind that the new initiates were Srila Prabhupada's disciples.
No predecessor acharya has ever authorized such a system to receive initiation from them, therefore this argument that the ritvik system can be used as a pretext to receive diksa from anyone else is shallow at best.
Srila Prabhupada had seen first hand the mess that His Godbrothers created with the Gaudiya Math by disobeying the instructions of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (to create a GBC) and letting their ambition to be big gurus get the best of them.
Srila Prabhupada wanted to prevent that from happening with His Iskcon. He expressed clearly, in the few months before His departure, that none of His disciples were qualified to be His successor(s).
Listen to the recording of the conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Tamal Krsna swami recorded on April 22nd 1977. In that conversation, Srila Prabhupada is asking Tamal whether he knew that Hansadutta was causing trouble in Germany (He was trying to be a guru even before Srila Prabhupada left the planet).
Srila Prabhupada said "What is the use of producing some rascal gurus... You can cheat but you will not be effective".
And Tamal himself admitted in that same conversation that he and all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples were still conditioned souls and, therefore, could not be diksa guru.
And Srila Prabhupada was no fool. He knew the people that had come to Him and where they were at. So, He instituted a system of initiation which He tested from 1970 to 1977.
And, in 1977, witnessing His health declining fast, He ordered the entire GBC to come to Vrindavan to ask some, possibly, last questions.
18 of the 23 GBC members at the time made it to Vrindavan. They had a meeting among themselves and came up with 5 questions, all of which pertained to a time when Srila Prabhupada would no longer be with us. They wanted to know/confirm how to run things after Srila Prabhupada's departure.
Question #3 was,"We want to know how to conduct 1st and 2nd initiations, specifically at a time when you (Srila Prabhupada) is no longer with us?"
Srila Prabhupada answered immediately, "I shall name some of you to act as officiating acharyas".
Then Tamal Krsna asked, "Is this called ritvik acharya?"
Srila Prabhupada replied, "Ritvik, yes?"
Then, in June 1977, there is a recorded conversation where Srila Prabhupada dictates to Tamal Krsna the names of the devotees to act as ritviks.
And that is the background of the July 9th directive.
The 11 ritviks have been named by Srila Prabhupada Himself, not self-appointed like you stated.
Please know your history.
Everybody has access to Goggle nowadays. So, you have no excuse to still be uninformed.
Dhira Kṛṣṇa Das 9 months ago@DD-su5htthis watered down foolish replies shows the mentality of people like you.
Krsna is the Supreme spiritual master. He sends his representative.
We do not jump, we accept the words of the acharya.
The question to you is where any of these bogus gorus have been appointed by His Divine Grace?
We don't take from Lord Brahma because His Divine Grace never said that. If he said to die, we'd humbly do that.
Give up your cheating propensity, that is not going to help you.
FreeMagicFun 5 months ago@DD-su5ht Exactly. Disciplic succession must be maintained. If we can get initiated as disciples of gurus that are gone... let's just skip right over the middle men and get initiated in Chaitanya's name. Not to belittle Srila Prabhupada in any way, but the ritviks are trying to promote him to a higher status, just as early christians and buddhists did to their leaders. When a charismatic leader leaves, weak followers try to promote the leader's charisma, instead of stepping up. Prabhupada, jesus, and buddha were gurus... and that does not diminish them in any way.- thumb_up — 1
Shubh Maheshwari 1 month agoTo also only focus on the word guru as meaning diksha guru is wrong, srila bhaktivinod thakur was the siksha guru of gaur kishor das babaji maharaj, and jagannath das babaji maharaj was siksha guru of bhaktivinod thakur maharaj, so how did bhakti siddhanta sarasvati thakur become diksha guru, its because he is bonafide guru selected by krishna, so is Srila Prabhupada, the diksha process was never the formal yagna only, the essence is the transfer of spiritual knowledge which is done in our parampara by Srila Prabhupada
Iskcon is only focusing on the living guru, which means they are trying to say that the acharya like a common man cannot act beyond his body, which is clearly objected against in the shastras, and as far as spiritual authority is concerned a siksha guru acts as a living source of guidance, but diksha giving power remains with srila prabhupada only, a voting system that is present in iskcon cannot be used to elect a guru- thumb_up — 1
Stories 1 year agoJust so you all know ISKCON Bangalore won the supreme court case today
Against ISKCON mumbai.. its a majir setback for guruvadis- thumb_up — 1
- Stories 1 year ago@sadaharidas Kaliyuga was about to win because of these Rascal Gurus.. we stopped it for timebeing 😂
- Sada Hari Das 1 year ago@stories5961
See how blinded you guys are
Just stop and think about a second. Was Prabhupada unable to create a single Maha Bhagvat? Out of his 5000 disciples there wasn’t anyone who became a pure devotee ?
Now just think that if there is even 1% chance that he did make then what kind of Vaishnav apradh you guys are doing - Stories 1 year ago@sadaharidas No one is saying Srila Prabhupada wasn’t powerful enough to create maha-bhagavats. He gave everything — shastra, example, instruction. But that doesn’t mean people followed. The real question is: Did Srila Prabhupada authorize any disciple to become diksha guru after him? And the answer is: No.
You’re mixing Prabhupada's potency with his order.
Srila Prabhupada himself said, “Everything depends on the order of the spiritual master. Not just qualification.” So even if someone was maha-bhagavat, that still doesn’t give them the right to initiate unless they were authorized. Otherwise you’re just running your own show.
If a disciple thinks, “I’m pure so I’ll do what I want,” even without guru’s instruction, that’s not devotion — that’s pride. And Srila Prabhupada crushed that kind of independence over and over.
And let’s not pretend here — most of the 11 self-appointed gurus in 1978 fell into disgrace, scandals, or left. You think that’s maha-bhagavat behavior? Where’s the proof of their purity? Show it. Instead, you guilt-trip people with “1% chance” and “Vaishnava aparadh.” That’s emotional blackmail, not shastric argument.
Real aparadh is ignoring guru’s final instruction and replacing it with man-made systems. That’s what caused this whole mess. 
Dinesh Janapati 1 year ago@sadaharidas Hare Krishna. Here is a quote from Prabhupada that addresses that point. “If you are incapable of raising yourself to the standard of becoming spiritual master, that is not your spiritual master’s fault, that is your fault. " (Room Conversation, June 29, 1972, San Diego)
Mahesh Shinde 1 year agoInterpretation is required when things are not clear. In July 9th letter initiation related description is clear that Srila Prabhupada wants to establish ritvik system of initiation when prabhupada was preset physically and after his departure as well. Otherwise he would have clearly mentioned name who would initiate after his departure.- thumb_up — 2
- Jaya Nitai 5 months agou r interpreting. he has already given so many orders about him wanting his disciples to be guru. there is however no clear ritvik order u abhrahamic people
Yadukulamani 1 year agoThere exist no concept of 'messiah' in vaisnavism or broader hinduism. period
Julescape 2 years agoSinister movement, as SP called it, has infiltrated Iskcon and hijacked it. JAS, TKG and the other zionistic demons. Bogus gurus.
Jagannath Charan Das 2 years agoOBVIOUS QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT THE GURU APPOINTMENTS -After the announcement (BTG March ’78, 3 months late), many doubts plagued some independent-thinking devotees: (1) Why was the so-called guru selection or 'appointment' not announced by Srila Prabhupada himself during his manifest presence? (2) Why did the GBC or the eleven “appointees” not announce publicly the appointment of gurus before Srila Prabhupada departed in Nov. 1977, or at least immediately afterwards, and why did they wait until the end of March 1978, remaining silent for over 4 months? (3) Did the GBC wait until after Srila Prabhupada's departure to publicly announce the new gurus so they would not be corrected by Srila Prabhupada? (4) Why has this whole issue of Guru appointment and future initiations never been fully and thoroughly investigated by independent brahamanas or openly discussed in the devotee society? (5) Why was no evidence in letters or tapes given to support their claim of appointed successor acharyas? “Once they disobeyed their spiritual master’s instructions and embarked on the zonal-acharya diksha-guru course, they became lost in uncharted and unfamiliar waters. A catastrophic shipwreck was inevitable.” (Zonal Acharyas, Doktorski, p. 59) As Gurukripa das asked: “If Srila Prabhupada had appointed these eleven as spiritual masters, why did they not start initiating at once? Because they all knew very well they were never appointed!” (Srila Prabhupada’s Hidden Glories, 1.538)- thumb_up — 4
Максим Хоронеко 2 years agoPlease!! Devoties! Can ANYONE who knows english make transcribtion for this video??? Your service will allow all Russian-speaking devotees to watch this interesting video. Hare Krishna!- thumb_up — 3
A Kunal 2 years agoSo the title of this morning's discussion is the first step in resolving the controversy over the current role of the Guru and ISKCON.
Now something I should say right now is what we're trying to achieve here we don't expect to resolve the issue during three or four hours this morning but we're going to give a chance for the issue to be aired in public in this fashion maybe for the first time. We met this morning, the participants met this morning for about a half an hour to go over the format and agree on the rules of the presentation and so forth. So what's going to be happening is that for the next hour the devotees from New Jaipur will be presenting their point of view on this issue and then after that we've allotted another hour for reply by Rabindra Swarup and Jayadvaita Swami. Then after that we're going to take a 15-minute break and immediately after the break we're going to have a question and answer session. The questions should be submitted in writing and the questions will be answered by both groups within a specified amount of time.
So as you think of questions issues that you'd like to see discussed or brought up then please write them down. You can either give them to Naveen Krishna during the break or Narshinga the sergeant-at-arms will periodically go around and collect your questions. The questions that will be excepted will be questions that are the most on the topic and seemed to be relevant and interesting to the greatest number of devotees. This question is directed to a particular person or to one side or to everyone. If you might you can direct the question to a particular person but both points of view are going to have a chance to express themselves on each issue. Now we've also decided on a few rules for the discussion. Number one is that we're not going to talk about the history of the development of the Guru system after Shrila Prabhupad's departure. We feel that, that issue has been going over enough but what the focus of this discussion is what system that Shrila Prabhupad want for continuing the disciplic succession and will also focus on the present state of initiations in ISKCON.
A few operating rules are that the speakers will be interrupted if they significantly wander off the topic or if they cast dispersions on any individual either present or not present on their character or their motives in devotional service. Also speakers will be warned if they insult any other speaker or if the voices start to get raised or somehow or other, this discussion is interrupted and not heeding the warning then the speakers will lose their speaking privileges. Yes Haribilas Prabhu.......then mention that on your piece of paper pass it forward, you have a comment to make on a specific topic and if there's time after we've if we see that everyone is satisfied in the questions and answers and that the major issues have gotten aired then we have a little extra time.... will allow devotees to get up for a few minutes and speak their point of view. Since we're not expecting to reach a conclusion here the last half an hour of this meeting which is running till two o'clock will be dedicated to taking proposals for continuing the process. First we're going to ask the devotees whether you're interested in continuing this process, whether you think that it should be discussed further in the society and if so then we'll take specific proposals as to how this could become an ongoing process until such time as it's resolved. Any questions about the procedure? Okay then we'll be good.. Did we agree on a specific topic ...yes I said that ...what system that Srila Prabhupada want for continuing the sampradaya.
Okay any other questions all right this floor is yours. We are focusing on the present state of the guru system in ISKCON. We're not going to talk about what happened after Srila Prabhupad departed. what mistakes people think may have been made or like that...yes Prabhu.... Will it be reasonable to ask if another few of the devotees here could go on this side, let's say the GBC side or whatever, with Jaibhadra Swami in case they do have comments like some other devotees could speak up without sending the paper and say ...Well that's up to them...this is their presentation. They want to bring anybody else up they are free to, they can go negotiate with them....Yes I'd like to thank all the participants for taking the trouble to come here and before we start let's take a moment to offer our obeisances to all the assembled Vaishnavas.
End of 6:30- thumb_up — 3
- Максим Хоронеко 2 years ago@axlluxz9798 Thank you very much. All russian devoties will be very happy to watch this. It's a great searvice to russian devoties. Please take my humble obeisences.
Pelvis Assley 11 months ago@manhole1984в Ютубе теперь ИИ субтитры переводят на 95% правильно, просто отредактируйте результат- thumb_up — 1
- Aa 2 years agoLoad of nonsense, guru parampara is not a mafia family tree, there are huge gaps & it's not possible to record all branches & sub branches.
Prabhupada instructs us to pick up from the latest "prominent acarya"- thumb_up — 1
- Aa 2 years agoISKCONS bogus guru model business has all the hallmarks of a mafia system.
- thumb_up — 1
Jitesh Hirani 2 years agoThe last argument where prabhu mentions Guru is eternal. Does that mean I can get initiated by Lord Brahma? Why stop there…can I get Lord Krsna as my diksa guru?
Did Srila Prabhupada say a diksa-guru is eternal or did he say the guru-tattva is eternal?- thumb_up — 7
Human🐰 2 years ago_"This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today without any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say 'there is no bonafide Guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future,' is an atheistic opinion."_ — *BHAKTI SIDDHANT SARASWATI THAKUR*- thumb_up — 1
- Jitesh Hirani 2 years agoUnfortunately their position is that they are ok with a pure devotee coming down but they expect that in ISKCON diksa only comes from Srila Prabhupada
Mahesh Aggarwal 2 years ago@Jitesh108Ritwiks do not give their opinions, they are following the order of Srila Prabhupada given in his final will of how the initiations must go on after his disappearance.- thumb_up — 3
- Jitesh Hirani 2 years ago@mathurachandradasa and they also have to repeat what’s in line from previous acharyas…this ritvik doctrine is flawed. Who picks the next Ritviks if Srila Prabhupada meant “Henceforward” to mean forever?
What you say is open to interpretation.- thumb_up — 1
- Jitesh Hirani 2 years agoWithPrince-jj9jv Srila Prabhupada established the GBC, does the GBC recognize him as the successor?
- karnamrta krishna dasa 1 year agoSrimad Bhagavatam 2.9.8:
“There is no difference between the Lord and the Lord’s instructions and sound vibration coming from Him, even though He is not physically present. The best way of understanding is to accept such divine instruction, and Brahma, the prime spiritual master of everyone, is the living example of this process of receiving Transcendental Knowledge. The potency of transcendental sound is never minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent. One has to receive the transcendental sound from the right source, accept it as a reality and prosecute the direction without hesitation. The secret of success is to receive the sound from the right source of a bona fide spiritual master…….”
Srila Prabhupada consistently explains the same theme in a cohesive, coherent and cognitive way that is easily assimilated for the reader. Here He also adds that Lord Brahma, although not in our purview, is a “living example” of this process. Lord Brahma is the Spiritual Master of everyone according to Srila Prabhupada’s definition in this purport, which clearly proves beyond any doubt that Srila Prabhupada is not only our Spiritual Master, but moreover clearly ISKCON’s Diksa Guru, still living. - DD 1 year ago@mathurachandradasa @geroldbendix1651 I am planing to open a temple in my town....Can I with my friends and family nominate ourselves as Ritwiks and give diksha using Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's picture directly? Please tell I need help!
Ritwiks are GIVING THEIR OPINION....they are simply manipulating others into their own opinion and concocting Srila Prabhupada's words. Why I am saying this is "Please approach and ask SriMadhu Pandit ji that who has appointed him as a bonafide Ritwik"? you will be shocked to know that none of the 11 bonafide Ritwiks selected by Srila Prabhupada has appointed him. Sri Madhu Pandit ji along with his family and friends nominated themselves as RITWIKs! 
parvesh sangwan 1 year ago@Jitesh108Yes Guru is eternal, read Bhagwad gita verse 4. 42 please. Hare Krishna, in purport it is mentioned- Jitesh Hirani 1 year ago@parveshsangwan01yes Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is eternal, I will get initiated by him.
- Jitesh Hirani 1 year ago@parveshsangwan01yes Guru is eternal but the question is can I get diksha from eternal Guru, if yes, then I should be able to get diksha from Bhaktisiddhanta or Bhaktivinoda or why stop there? lets me just go to Lord Brahma!
jithesh K. J. 1 year ago@Jitesh108hare Krishna Prabhu, yes u can try go to the gaudiya matt, chant 64 rounds and follow other rules and regulations required initially and qualify for ur desire for the same if u truly desire. But if one wants to stay in Prabhupad's ISKCON, he has follow Prabhupads orders.- Jitesh Hirani 1 year ago@jitheshk.j.2749ISKCON is following what Srila Prabhupada taught, it’s in his books, many of the westerners didn’t know about disciplic succession nor did they know about initiation, Srila Prabhupada taught these things and ISKCON is following the principle of parampara to the gold standard degree!
- CroDude 1 month ago@Jitesh108 Prabhupada is making devotees through his books and can therefore initiate someone into spiritual life. That is sufficient to begin one's spiritual journey. Formal initiation alone is not the essential qualification for advancement. If someone accepts initiation from a so called guru who lacks genuine qualifications, or who remains on the kanistha adhikari platform, then spiritual progress may become very difficult. Real advancement depends on receiving proper guidance from a qualified representative of the disciplic succession. Can Jesus initiate if you pray to him..?
- Jitesh Hirani 1 month ago@stepkokithe problem with your statement is how does the spiritual master know when the disciple is qualified to be initiated?
- CroDude 1 month agoPhysical presence is not the real qualification for initiation. Even during Srila Prabhupada's presence, some disciples were initiated and later fell down. That shows that physical proximity alone is not the determining factor.
A bona fide spiritual master is an empowered representative of Lord Krishna. Krishna is situated in everyone's heart as Paramatma and knows the sincerity of every soul. Through sincere prayer and service, both Krishna and the spiritual master can recognize when a devotee is ready to receive mercy.
The idea that a disciple must personally tell the guru, "I am now qualified for initiation," is not a very strong argument. Qualification is not established simply by a verbal declaration. A conditioned soul may think he is ready when he is not, while another may humbly think he is unqualified and yet be spiritually mature.
If Krishna in the heart can guide and inspire a sincere devotee, He can also reveal that devotee's sincerity to His pure representative. Spiritual life ultimately depends on divine guidance, not on physical distance.
Srila Prabhupada repeatedly emphasized that vani, spiritual instruction, is more important than vapuh, physical presence. The real connection is through hearing, following instructions, and sincere service. Physical presence may be helpful, but it is not the essential principle. The essential principle is the spiritual relationship established through faith, obedience, and mercy. - Jitesh Hirani 1 month ago@stepkoki Another point worth mentioning is that the failings or fall-downs of some ISKCON gurus do not automatically establish the ritvik conclusion. At most, they demonstrate that some individuals who accepted the role of guru were not qualified or did not remain qualified. That is certainly a serious issue, but exposing problems within a system is not the same as proving an alternative system. The existence of failed gurus does not, by itself, prove that Srila Prabhupada intended a perpetual post-samadhi ritvik arrangement. That conclusion still requires clear authorization from Srila Prabhupada himself.
Respectfully, this argument seems to address a different issue than the one actually being debated. Few devotees would deny that Krishna in the heart can guide a sincere soul, or that vani is more important than vapu. The real question is whether Srila Prabhupada explicitly authorized himself to remain the initiating guru for all future generations after his physical departure.
The fact that some disciples met Srila Prabhupada physically and later fell down does not prove that a departed acarya can continue accepting new disciples indefinitely. Physical proximity was never the qualification; authority and authorization are the issue.
Similarly, citing Paramatma does not resolve the question. Krishna knows everyone’s sincerity, yet He still established the external guru-disciple system. Bhagavad-gita 4.34 instructs us to approach a spiritual master, inquire submissively, and render service. The existence of Paramatma has never been presented as a replacement for guru-parampara.
It is also worth noting that every disciple initiated by Srila Prabhupada during his manifest presence was personally accepted by him, either directly or through recommendations that received his approval. The question is: where is the evidence that he continued accepting new disciples after November 1977?
The July 9th letter is often cited, but even there the word “henceforward” does not automatically mean “indefinitely” or “for all future generations.” The ritvik representatives Srila Prabhupada named in that letter were not eternal; they would eventually pass away themselves. More importantly, the letter states that these representatives would perform initiations on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf. It does not state that Srila Prabhupada would continue accepting new disciples indefinitely after his departure, nor does it establish a perpetual post-samadhi initiation system.
The statement that “vani is more important than vapu” is certainly true, but it does not automatically establish a post-samadhi initiation system. Otherwise, one could argue that any previous acarya in the parampara should still be initiating disciples today.
Ultimately, the discussion comes down to a simple question: can a clear statement be produced where Srila Prabhupada explicitly says that after his departure he would continue to accept new disciples as the initiating guru for future generations? Without such a statement, many devotees conclude that the traditional guru-parampara model remains the default understanding. The burden is not to show that Krishna can guide sincere souls—that is accepted by everyone—but to show that Srila Prabhupada explicitly replaced the traditional guru-parampara system with a perpetual ritvik system. That is the point that still requires clear evidence.
James Newsom 2 years agoUnfortunately, present moment, Iskcon is becoming apasampradaya. They do not understand jiva tattva. They do not understand Guru tattva. They want to legislate guru. It is like chasing sky flowers. The relationship of disciple and Guru is between the two of them. Naturally, a sane Vaishnava is reluctant to take that post. Guru is appointed by and is a function of Krishna. When misunderstanding arises Srila Prabhpada recommended, referring to the previous acharyas and to current well respected Vaishnavas. Srila Prabhupada recommended Srila Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara Maharaja as the best person to go to after his departure for philosophical understanding. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur commented about him that upon my departure. At least I know that there is one person who can represent my conclusions. Refer to the publication.: Sri Guru and His Grace. Unfortunately, Iskcon leader ship of the day, not only rejected him and grievously offended him. That offense still hangs around the neck of Iskcon as a whole. Vaishnava aparadha of the highest order. The mad elephant offense is shredding Iskcon in the department of so many philosophical misunderstandings. Great, Iskcon continues as a giant financial machine. But as far as delivering the finest points of siddhanta, it is, is Ship lost at Sea without a rudder.- thumb_up — 2
Peace Formula 3 years agoThe living entity gets what he deserves.
Better pray to Krishna to not get cheated and get a Bonafide Guru just like Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gour Govinda Swami 😊- thumb_up — 4
- Peace Formula 3 years agoSrila Prabhupada spent 17 days in Bhubaneswar, Orissa, India living in a cottage with Srila Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja with whom he had many confidential conversations with Srila Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja which were not recorded as there was no one else in the room.
ISKCON Bhubaneswar was Srila Prabhupada's 108th and last founded project.
Srila Prabhupada wanted to go to be with his Disciple Srila Gour Govinda Swami in Bhubaneswar in 1977 towards the end of his manifest pastimes but those who posed as Srila Prabhupada's inner circle disregarded the instruction of Srila Prabhupada and made a calculation with their material senses that Srila Prabhupada was too sick to go.
The Temple Presidents then blocked the information that Srila Prabhupada was in Vrindavan and wanted all his disciples to go to Vrindavan, because they didn't want money collecting and services to stop in their Temples.
Devotees who aren't sure about the qualifications who is a Bonafide Guru and how to receive a Bonafide Guru would do well to study the teachings of Srila Gour Govinda Swami who spoke Srila Prabhupada's instructions authoritatively establishing the Absolute Truth AND Higher Teachings from Srila Prabhupada's books WITHIN Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's movement, ISKCON. 
Julio zambrano 3 years agoNot ritvik system, but also no appointment of gurus, as the same Tamal Krishna G declared. Guru after Prabhupada, yes but only those who have the qualification, that are very clearly presented in his divine grace books, like this one for example: ... vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha-vegaṁ jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ sarvām apīmāṁ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind’s demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world.
Apna_Bharat 3 years agoYou all who have no idea of about Indian Guru Parampara system are exactly ill minded
There have no many guru paramparas in india since time immorial but there has been no, in which one takes initiation from Guru Deity , This idea is exactly like Abrahmic Religions
I am not advocating iskcon but advocating to Guru Parampara i just heard about iskcon's fraction who gives Diksha from Guru Deity, btw i am from Ramanand Shri Sampradaya
What are your idea of qualification of Guru?
One must become Guru, one should follow guru's orders exactly and make disciples
There are still many bonafide spiritual Gurus of Shri, Bramha sampradayas who are preaching Vedic knowledge abd having staunch Guru Parampara system
Taking Initiation from a Guru Murti can never be accepted in indian culture- Julio zambrano 3 years ago@DevRaja2025 There is not an "indian" Guru parampara, but a sanatan dharma parampara. We have the char sampradaya and its parampara. Sri, Brahma, Rudra and Kumara sampradaya. All bonafide with the respective Guru parampara coming from Laksmi, Brahma, Shiva, and the Kumaras, and represented by Ramanuja, Madhvacarya, Vishnuswami and Nimbaditya or Nimbarka. Until the present moment, each sampradaya having the same basic siddhanta is represented by one or more acharyas. You are right that no diksa can be taken from a murti, this is total speculation, and was not what Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada presented, he followed the tradition and respected the four sampradayas and their teachings. The qualifications of the Guru were also established by him according to Bhagavad Gita and other shastra.
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kj8060 3 years agoWhat i dont understand is this. There are thousands of audio recordings. Thousands of videorecordings / Bhagavadgita&SB lectures with Srila Prabhupada. Why somebody in the whole world didnt raise the hand after Bhagavadgita or Srila Bhagavatam lecture and said: Srila Prabhupada can you please explain in 10 minutes how you want this guru system/initiation system to continue after you leave your body one day. Please say it now so its all recorded. And for the record of clearity and no doubt take time and repeat the same next 30 days anywhere on planet you will be so we have 30 recordings in case something happens with one or two.....
Was it that hard to do? We would know now exactly whst to do without need of these meetings 👀- thumb_up — 1
User 2 years agoSatsvarūpa: Then our next question concerns initiations IN THE FUTURE, PARTICULARLY AT THAT TIME WHEN YOU ARE NO LONGER WITH US. We want to know how first and second initiations WILL BE conducted.
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating ācārya.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that called ṛtvik-ācārya?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: ṚTVIK. Yes.- thumb_up — 1
- Josh Wulf (Sitapati dasa) 1 year agoThe tapes with the clear instructions have been destroyed.
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- User 1 year ago@adityarawat6433 Full answer: “When I order ‘You become guru’, he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple.”
Where’s the order? 🤣- thumb_up — 1
lenny108 3 years ago1:02:37 JAS speaks as if he has knowledge but it is just bluff. This whole meeting was just a speculation. The actual process would have been to bring the eleven gurus in front of the deities and tell the truth about what Prabhupada had told them. Prabhupada: "And it is the system still now in India, if there is some disagreement or quarrel between two parties, so still they would go to the temple — temple is dharma-kṣetra — so that one may not dare to speak lie in front of the Deity. This was still going on. Even one is very low in mentality, still, if he is challenged that "You are talking this false. Now speak before the Deity," he will hesitate, "No." This is India still. You cannot speak lies before the Deity."- thumb_up — 20
Gudakesh Das Michael F. Castañeda Rozo 2 years agoTheyve been liying inside the temples, in front of the sacred Deities while sitting on the vyasasan they don't belong to ever since. Complete traitors to Srila Prabhupada.
jithen dtk 1 year agoIf there is any consusion related to spiritual matters we need to reffer Shastras we need to seek advice from Ramanuja followers and Madhvacharya followers they will uphold Guru Parampara- thumb_up — 2
- jithen dtk 1 year agoCan Srila Prabhupada speak something that is not there in the shastras? pls do not invent new tradition out of thin air
pls read the conversation between Birla and Srila Prabhupada just 12 days before his departure he clearly says my disciples will follow the principles preached by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and the Guru Parampara. - lenny108 1 year agoIn kali-yuga many things are forbidden. Even a man's begetting children by his brother's wife. What we have seen in the past fifty years is that it should be even forbidden to worship living saints. This is what Christianity does. - beatification only after death. Devotees were bowing down to hundreds of fake sanyasis and gurus. This madness should be stopped. The possibility that a GBC guru or sannyasi is fake is 50%.
Veerendra Ekbote 3 years agoSrila Prabhupada after his departure wanted Ritvik initiation to continue & didnt appoint any Guru after him but appointed 11 Ritviks to continue Ritvik initiation.- thumb_up — 21
Taruṇa Govinda Dāsa 2 years agoSo people initiated in 1000 years by ritviks will still be Srila Prabhupada disciples. Why not to take initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati or Bhaktivinod Thakur, or even from Lord Chaitanya?- thumb_up — 9
- Mahesh Aggarwal 2 years ago@TaruṇaGovindaDāsabecause they did not order for Ritwik initiation, Srila Prabhupada wrote in his will and ordered for Ritwik initiations henceforth
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Subam Nabensa 2 years ago@mathurachandradasa Yes so simple..rascal is worried about guru parampara more than guru's instructions..guru parampara is taken care when lost by Krishna not by us- thumb_up — 2
Spiritual Wisdom and Love 1 year ago@TaruṇaGovindaDāsaIt’s Srila Prabhupada order and also Krishna desire regarding ritivik system, we can not place this principle to other Acharya because according situation and time Spiritual master order so that we can advance in Krishna consciousness and connect with Krishna and it’s also Srila Prabhupada responsibility . We can not copy the order of srila prabhupada with other Acharya- thumb_up — 1
student 1 year ago@TaruṇaGovindaDāsa according to July 9 letter, srila Prabhupada is only guru, srila prabhupad:- I'll never die
Venu Gopal 1 year ago@mathurachandradasa Hence forth means till his physical presence. Not for 10,000/-
Oskar Baumann 3 years agoOf the 11 disciples chosen for Ritvik...how many are still present today?
Do we now understand why Srila Prabhupada did not appoint a successor?- thumb_up — 33
Paarth 🍂 1 year agoJayapataka swami maharaj is still here and even a single pure devotee is enough to be the successor of Srilla prabhupada- thumb_up — 3
Matthew 3 years agoThe Iskcon gurus today act as ritviks whether they admit it or not. They all say chant 16 rounds, follow 4 regulations, read Srila Prabhupada's and follow his instruction. The real reason the living guru system is so adamantly advocated by Iskcon is because it provides power, money and control, not out of altruistic spiritual concerns. Anyone who has read Prabhupada's books and understands the science of self realization will know that mundane physicality is not at all necessary for spiritual development.- thumb_up — 9
- nofugz 3 years agoYeah, and one can also understand from his books that he advocated the parampara system, and the necessity of disciplic succession for transfer of knowledge. Nowhere in any of his books has he ever advocated the ritvik system.
- Matthew 3 years ago@nofugz8939 It doesn't matter. That's what many devotees don't understand. When someone makes the point 'Prabhupada never said it in his books' he's revealing a dogmatic understanding of spirituality. This idea of being connected to parampara or not being connected to parampara is not based on a fake fire sacrifice from a living guru. Pour some ghee in a fire and abracadabra you're now in the family of Rupa Gosvami. It's based on following the orders of the spiritual master.
We're talking about a spiritual phenomenon that is not bound by time, place or circumstance. One doesn't need a fake fire sacrifice from a living guru to be connected to parampara. The idea is very neophyte.- thumb_up — 2
- Taruṇa Govinda Dāsa 2 years agoYes, deny living guru and any living authority so no one can correct you and guide you. So you can do whatever you want. Good luck 🙏
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- Matthew 2 years ago@TaruṇaGovindaDāsa yes you have clearly been brainwashed to think in that way. Your guru is staring at you in the mirror fool.
- Achyuta Nanda 1 year ago@nofugz8939 Srila Prabhupada also mentioned not to edit his books or make any fundamental changes but, those were made to align with their agendas who authorised these actions? Definitely not Prabhupada
- Achyuta Nanda 1 year ago@TaruṇaGovindaDāsaWe all know the 'living guru' doesn't micromanage his devotees he just redirects them to a siksha guru essentially you're following the ritvik system but denying Srila Prabhupada and taking up to self-appointed gurus. You need the best of luck!
- nofugz 1 year ago@achyutananda8453 It's not correct to edit, but, the edits do not alter Prabhupada's core message, at all. The meaning is maintained intact. But RItviks reinterpret prabhupada's books teachings to justify their ritvik stance, although there is ZERO mention of this. READ BG 4.34 !!!!
- Achyuta Nanda 1 year ago@nofugz8939 There are more than 5000 edits in the Bhagavad-Gita As it is from the original 1972 McMillan edition to the current versions and the original editions are nowhere accessible in the temples under the ISKCON guru system how is that fair? Inaccessibility of the founder acharya's version of the book in his own organisation? What are the reasons justifying for such extensive revisions?
Which excerpts are excessively extrapolated or exaggerated to match the ritvik philosophy can you please share? - nofugz 1 year ago@achyutananda8453 You are just straw-manning bro. The topic is "Did prabhupada enforce a post-samadhi ritcik system" (He did not). The topic of "Is editing Prabhupada's books correct", is a DIFFERENT topic, and hardly even related.
Now coming to your straw-man point : I myself use the 1972 version bought at ISKCON, so they do sell it. Although I use this now, my spiritual journey began with the edited version and I read it for many many years and got all my knowledge from it. When I would hear Prabhupada’s lecture, not once did I think that the edited version is not his words. I am against Edits which change the essence, but the edits that were made (although unnecessary) did not change the ideology. But overall, I am against any edits made on Prabhupada's books (apart from the cosmetic ones such as selling mistakes etc).
Regarding ritvik misrepresentation of Prabhupada's words, it is common sense. When Prabhupada talks about accepting a Guru, surrender to him and render service, he is talking about a physically present Guru. Prabhupada's message about continuing the parampara is not through taking diksha from his photo. - Achyuta Nanda 1 year ago@nofugz8939 I think you are unable to keep up with the dialectic hence claiming strawman! Let me break it down for you,
1. Did Prabhupada enforce a post-samadhi ritvik system?
Ans: Srila Prabhupada ordered (did not enforce - might carry a negative connotation) for a ritvik representatives' system going forward for the initiation process without any reservations like ifs, buts, etc. There are clear evidences such as the May 28th conversation, July 7th Conversation, October 16th conversation. The ultimate declaration of July 9th 1977 stands tall with clear and concise methods of how the initiation process will carry on. Srila Prabhupada's will third section acts as a backup to this mentioning how the next gen executives and representatives will be appointed.
2. Is editing Prabhupada's books correct? - is a DIFFERENT topic, hardly even related.
Ans: It is highly relevant because that stands as an live example of how there have been attempts made to adulterate and alter the philosophy to align with their agenda. We have seen this time and again how during the early centuries the Mughals did this to Vedic scriptures then the British colonisers and now this. Scriptures are the basis for any philosophical and theological details to be explored and if you have control over the books that propagate these its at an impasse and over time becomes the truth.
Looks like the real strawman is YOU! You have zero evidences of any claim that you are making it is purely based on speculation and your "beliefs". Hence a evidenced, non-speculative and uncommon order of Srila Prabhupada is incomprehensible. So you prefer the steelman arguement of ritvik over the strawman self-appointed guru system.
Your cognitive dissonance is apparent when you talk about the edits made to Srila Prabhupada's books this is either to manipulate neophytes or your inability to face the truth against your so-called beliefs. The change in your ideology is apparently masked by the earlier weak foundations leading you into an infinite regress. Hopefully your reading of Srila Prabhupada's original books and listening to lectures will end this.
Lastly, your adherence to "physical guru", "living guru", is a concept fabricated by the guru system to further their business. Quote one verse from any scripture where a guru is considered dead and gone once he departs from this material world. This is against our Krishna Consciousness philosophy. This line of argument will lead to questioning the authenticity of the philosophy altogether. When we sing in the Guru puja - sāksād-dharitvena - The Spiritual Master is described as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if Lord Sri Krishna can reciprocate to our prayers through deities, photographs, and through a postcard, then Srila Prabhupada as a representative of Lord Sri Krishna can accept disciples through deity form, photo form or postcard form if required. Let's not limit Srila Prabhupada to our level of understanding just because your common sense is capped!
Hope this helps to look at Srila Prabhupada as more than a deity and take His Divine Grace's shelter. Jai Srila Prabhupada! Hare Krishna. - nofugz 1 year ago@matt28767 Dear friend, that is the whole point of Diksha, it is for neophytes mainly (which is basically everyone when they start), hence physically present Guru is required because they neither have the vision to see the un-manifest Gurus, nor the vision to see the Lord. It’s common sense really. Unfortunately, it’s not so common anymore.
You are talking great words without any knowledge. We come in the Bhagavata parampara, as opposed to Diksha parampara. In our parampara Shiksha is given higher importance, as can be seen from our parampara list in “Bhagavta Gita as it is”. We have omitted the diksha Gurus and written the Shiksha Gurus in multiple places in that list. Also in the Bhagavatm, Shukadev Goswami liberated Parikshit maharaj through Shiksha, not by giving Diksha. So from one angle, no Diksha is required as per Gaudiya theology. But from another angle, because all of us are of such low intelligence, it is recommended to take Diksha following the Pancharatrika system, and like that do Sadhana-Bhakti. So if one wants to take Diksha, it must be from a physically present Guru. There is no question about it. Taking Diksha from photo was neither established by Prabhupada, nor was it followed as a system in any bonafide smpradaya before this, and nor is it in any Shastra. From all angles ritvik is bogus. It is just a sentimental reaction to a negative event.
- Peace Formula 3 years agoIt's required. Real initiation is in the Heart to a living Guru coming in the line from Srila Prabhupada in Mahaprabhu's parampara.
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- Apna_Bharat 3 years ago@peaceformula5830
Yes , Guru Parampara must be there , I come in contact of Krsna devotees just some time ago
Even before this i can say that in indian society one not accept idea of Taking Diksha from Guru Deity
Even false Guru also give diksha when they are living and after them their Student give diksha😂
But actually this is the System of Guru Parampara
But one should follow strongly to Guru's orders
Krishna Balaram Kirtan 3 years agoSincere souls can and do understand the right path as Krishna inspires them from within. So it behooves us that we become sincere and serious in Krishna Consciousness. Then we will get the right help and advice at every step. Krishna arranges our circumstances according to our desires and as Prabhupad has said many times, the customers for buying diamonds will always be only a few... Similarly, we can't expect the general mass of people within our society to understand and appreciate the truth... Many of them want to be cheated and therefore Krishna sends them many cheaters with dhoti, tilak and even the tridanda...but when we stay sincere and fixed, we can inspire some of them back to Prabhupad.- thumb_up — 6
- Radha Shakti 1 year agoEverybody chants it. Every devotee I know. I chant it many times per day for 10 years now. You all like an apocalyptic atmosphere.
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- a ku 1 year ago@radhashakti108Not talking about pranam mantra. I'm talking about the mantra being sung at the beginning by them.
Ankit Patel 1 year ago@akumarmalaiIts Prabhupad stotra 5 stanzas written by Ananta dasa shastry, Prabhupada's sanskrit scholar disciple. I have heard this stotra in iskcon bangalore and other Ritwik temples. I chant it in my daily sewa pooja.- thumb_up — 1
SanKirtan-Yagya 3 years agoभगवान कृष्ण का मत 'RITVIK' को लेकर
श्रीमद्भगवद्गीता यथारूप, श्लोक - 4.2
एवम परम्परा-प्राप्तम
इमाम राजरसयो विदुः l
इस प्रकार यह परम विज्ञान गुरु-परम्परा द्वारा प्राप्त किया गया और राजर्षियों ने इसी विधि से इसे समझा l
इसलिए
ISKCON is very very authentic(प्रामाणिक) 👈👍
I respect & love Both ISKCON & RITVIK, but I follow ISKCON because Krishn says that this most secret knowledge can be received only by Guru-Parampara.
In many Lectures, Prabhupada says that become GURU and preach this Krishn Consciousness all over the world.- thumb_up — 24
- Mahesh Aggarwal 2 years agoSrila Prabhupada gave his final order through his WILL on July 9th 1977 regarding ritwik diksha . Prabhupada is in parampara and is instructing how the parampara must continue. Is it right to challenge Prabhupada's order through logical arguments or shastric debates ?
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Dr.Lokeshwar Das 1 year agoTo preach as “shiksha guru” is enough. To be a Diksha guru, one must be bonafide. Even Srila Prabhupada was not appointed as “Guru” but he was chosen successor by his guru BSST. So there is difference between “chosen” and “appointed”.
Even Srila Prabhupada said whoever is teaching or sharing knowledge of Caitanya Mahāprabhu is guru. But even our sastra and Prabhupada made it very clear about “shiksh , Diksha and caitya guru”.- thumb_up — 1
Mritunjoy Sarkar 1 year ago@mathurachandradasa are you try to say prabhupada failed to make a
Diksha guru?
शैलेंद्र दास NYS 1 year ago@mathurachandradasaपत्र में कोई भी मिलावट कर सकता हे
पत्र को सत्य का आधार नहीं मान सकते
अन्य प्रमाणिक संप्रदाय और गौडिए मठ को देखने से समझने में यह समझ आता हे कि ऋत्विक सिस्टम का कोई महत्व नहीं हे वहां- Ayushi Shah 1 year agoSrila Prabhupada in many of his interviews also said that he will never die he will always be present through his books and instructions and we will read them....that is what the Guru Shishya Parampara of receiving the knowledge is....and like said in above comments below are types of Spiritual Master Ref CC Madya 8.128, at places where Srila Prabhupada has asked to become Guru or make Students he is clearly asking to become Shiksha Guru and preach his teachings you can figure that out very easily
The spiritual master who first gives information about spiritual life is called the vartma-pradarśaka-guru, the spiritual master who initiates according to the regulations of the śāstras is called the dīkṣā-guru, and the spiritual master who gives instructions for elevation is called the śikṣā-guru. - Ayushi Shah 1 year ago*Chain is broken when there are false spiritual masters. Otherwise it is not broken. (Morning Walk, 2/9/76)*
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The Man 1 year ago@AyushiShah-b9w srila Prabhupada ne toh bohot baar ye bhi kaha hai ki unke shishya aur shishya banaye unhone toh ye bhi kaha hai ki guru ko physically present hona chahiye haan srila Prabhupada hamesha hai pr as the prominent siksha guru
Srila Prabhupada khud chahte hai ki unke shishya diksha guru bane aur iss parampara ko aage badhaaye aur unke shishya aisa hi kr rahe hai- Pankaj Jangid 1 year ago@the.man51
Room Conversation
—
April 22, 1977, Bombay 👇
Prabhupäda: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?
Tamäla Kåñëa: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it's clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible...
Prabhupäda: Hm.
Tamäla Kåñëa: ...but not now.
Prabhupäda: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become äcärya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all äcärya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
Tamäla Kåñëa: The process of purification must be there.
Prabhupäda: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahäprabhu wants that. Ämära äjïäya guru haïä [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become guru." (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower...
Tamäla Kåñëa: Not rubber stamp.
Prabhupäda: Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gauòéya Maöha. Everyone wanted to become guru, and a small temple and "guru." What kind of guru? No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff... My Guru Mahäräja used to say, "Joint mess," a place for eating and sleeping. Amar amar ara takana (?)(Bengali): "Joint mess." He said this.
Read it carefully and know the reality
Here also Srila Prabhupada express his desires to see his disciples become bonafide spiritual masters. But here he personally told that training must be complete. If they would be fully trained, I would say them -> Prabhupäda: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become äcärya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all äcärya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
But Prabhupada never told them like this means he know they are still not qualified to become spiritual masters- thumb_up — 1
- The Man 1 year ago@PankajJangid-iw2bh
Sabse pehele ye samajhna chahiye hame ki ek sadhu kabhi bhi khudko mahaan nahi samjhta aise hi tamaal krsna goswami maharaj aur srila Prabhupada ke baki shishya bhi hai isliye tamal krsna goswami maharaj ne ye question kra agar unko politics hi krni hoti jaisa ritviks kehte hai toh vo sawaal kabhi krte hi kyu???
Srila Prabhupada ne hamesha baat shaashtro se boli hai vo iss conversation mai bhi shaashtro se hi bata rahe hai ki jo krsna consciousness mai perfect hai vo guru hai aur aisa keh ke ki koi bhi perfect hai srila Prabhupada ka shishya tum srila Prabhupada ka apmaan kr rahe ho ek sacche sadhu mahabhagwat ke sath rehene pe koi kaise nahi ban sakta perfect?? Srila Prabhupada ne multiple times apne shishyo ko agla guru banne ke liye kaha hai disciples banane ke liye kaha hai unka har ek order final order hai jaise sriman mahaprabhu ka har ek order final order hai
Srila Prabhupada 7th july 1977 ki conversation mai srila tamal krsna goswami maharaj ko kehte hai
"Prabhupāda: So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is right... That will depend on discretion."
Itna bharosa krte hai srila Prabhupada srila tamal krsna goswami maharaj pe agar vo perfect na hote toh srila Prabhupada kabhi aisa na kehte srila Prabhupada bhi jaante hai ki tamal krsna goswami maharaj aur unke baki shishya sab ke sab perfect hai aur guru banne ke layak hai
Srila Prabhupada ne kabhi bina shaashtra pramaan ke kuch kaha hai?? Tum dikha do mahaprabhu ne kaha pr keh diya ritvik system ke baare mai? Srila Prabhupada ne kabhi shad goswamiyo ki teachings se kuch alag nahi kaha toh tum dikha do kaha shad goswamiyo ne iss baat ka pramaan diya hai ritvik initiation ho sakti hai ya nahi
Srila Prabhupada ki disrespect mtt kro itne mahaan acharya hai ekbaar khule dimag se socho - Pankaj Jangid 1 year ago@the.man51 Hare Krishna Prabhu,
1) Srila Bhaktisiddhant maharaj prabhupada ke sisye unke departure ke baad godiya math me guru banne ke chakkar me sab kuch galat kiya. And this is told by Srila Prabhuada himself. Now you claim that just because Prabhupada ke disciples Prabhupada ke saath rahe to wo ab jo bhi kar rahe hain wo galat ho hi nahi sakta. Ye apne aap me galat argument hai.
I'm not saying ki Prabhupada ke disciples saare ke saare galat hain. What I'm saying ki merely disciple hona hi matter nahi karta balki disciple ki sincerity bhi matter karti hai.
2) Yes Tamal Krishna maharaj ne apne aap ko condition bataya. Ho sakta hai ki wo out of humility esa bol rahe hain. But then why he confess his disservice in pyramid house confession in 1980, then go to a Rasik guru and said what srila Prabhupada said is incomplete and what this rasik guru sat is perfect, then after 1995 he again said what prabhupada said is complete(chalo subah ka bhula saam ko ghar wapas aa gaye to kio na).
3)What prabhupada said about it will depend on your discretion in that conversation is clearly about further ritvik appointment in future. Means more ritvik can be appointed in future by management without Prabhupada discretion. This will again imply towards ritvik system of inittiation is authorised.
4)Prabhupada definitely have made statements about you all become guru, but if this were to be final order of Srila Prabhupada to become guru, then nobody would have fall down(With order from guru comes protection also from maya)
5)Srila Prabhupada is independent to do any unprecedented acts. Mrighari was initiated by Srila Narada Muni by breaking his bow, where is mentioned in sastras or in history of any sampradaya that by breaking a bow one can be initiated. Srila Prabhupada choose his way of initiation ie Ritvik system of initiation. It is disrespect of Srila Prabhupada when you say he(prabhupada ) is bound to limited ways of how he would initiate his disciples. Who are me and you to question about how srila prabhupada would initiate his disciples.- thumb_up — 1
Aaron Montiel 3 years agoOpposing team got bodied, Ritvik is what Srila Prabhupada wanted.... 11 years ago when I met ISKCON I read Srila Prabhupadas books, and got convinced with the philosophy, couldn't find a hole or an unanswered question in all of His books, conversations and letters. I never met any of these 'gurus' anytime they would come to the temple I wouldn't go (I'm in Latin America). So I wanted to take things more serious, start to live with devotees and get initiated but I was told by other initiated devotees that I couldn't accept His Divine Grace because he is not alive, instead I should accept a 'guru' that is alive. So illogical to me because I understood you would surrender your life to your Guru and I felt Srila Prabhupada was my guru because everything is in his books, and his instruction is alive. So I decided to leave and not come back because it didn't make sense to accept a person that didn't benefit my life in any way, or showed me the path... It's so unmotivating, but I'm glad to see this and other people come out with the same thoughts, at that time I really felt like I was crazy.- thumb_up — 21
Jed Steelwell 3 years agoYou don't need to follow any of these false gurus just chant follow the principals and read Prahbupads books! Krishna conscience movement belongs to Prahbupad not these false rascals that have ruined the movement- thumb_up — 5
- Taruṇa Govinda Dāsa 2 years agoSrila Prabhupada is our Siksha guru - giving instructions that we can follow. Initiating Diksha guru must be present. We will not find such a thing as ritvik initiations in vedic culture. Everyone including Krishna and Lord Chaitanya accepted living gurus so we should take inspiration from them and surrender to a lotus feet of a pure devotee who is our inspiration in our spiritual life. If a disciple is ready, Krishna will send the spiritual teacher who can guide us back to Krishna.
- thumb_up — 1
- Aaron Montiel 2 years ago@tomashromnik108 you have it all wrong prabhu. Srila Prabhupada did alot of things that were not found in vedic culture, for example the initiation of woman, another example could be he officiated weddings as a sannyasa. Like this you will find so many examples, Srila Prabhupada being as perfect as he is could see that his most senior disciples were not ready. This theory that Srila Prabhupada left disciples as initating gurus is so flawed that you can see by looking into the original 11 "gurus" how they fell from their positions... after srila prabhupada departure iskcon went off, now with the world seeing the power of the Jewish lobby it's clear how they too infiltrated iskcon, most of Srila Prabhupada senior disciples were and are jewish zionist....
Manu Das First Person Seva 2 years ago⏩RITVIK SYSTEM OF INITIATION⏪
📝INITIATIONS AFTER 1977 — POSITION PAPER (available in many languages)
https://www.iskm.international/initiations-ritvik-system/initiations-after-1977/
▶️ Ritvik — A Bona Fide System (available in many languages)
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQGHF3mp1o7_wGn1GTX_-i_sk5Z8u1Z8z&si=mjQa3Jie4KAF9Fzi
▶️ The Ṛtvik System of Initiations - Course
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQGHF3mp1o789PKRgjtfAK9mW7irlqbVe&si=243IRL53keVQMGhK
▶️ Unbiased Analytical Study Of Ritvik Initiation | Part 1
https://youtu.be/wOUP8MiUnEg?si=jV2JU5-e_I9kBf1I
▶️ Unbiased Analytical Study Of Ritvik Initiation | Part 2
https://youtu.be/McB_-SpqZxs?si=X0BKjR0XT_V3-v9C
▶️ Replying to anti-ritvik argument - Q&A #3
https://youtu.be/Dg_-Mc1_jOs?si=X8cR2yP7WVle3YPy
▶️ Newly found evidence supporting the Ritvik System of Initiation! Must Watch
https://youtu.be/Xxspb64aP1o?si=37cSMJ2OpdnRAZRQ
🆕▶️ Prabhupada's Rtvik System As It Is - ISKCON Leaders Exposed (Hindi Subs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxodlaOGmGM- Aaron Montiel 2 years agoWithPrince-jj9jv Srila Prabhupada did not choose a successor, so that is not correct...
- thumb_up — 1
- Aaron Montiel 2 years ago@tomashromnik108 Sannyasa also would not do wedding ceremony but Srila Prabhupada did this and so many other things, naturally He is above scripture...
Manish Kumar 3 years agohttps://youtu.be/Z-fPZJ2UlTQ ritvik - SP given system started as early as 1973 and modified by him as per his July 9th letter to all devotees ....
Best explained
William Scott 3 years agoJAS avoided to discuss the science of the qualification to become guru,as less important.- thumb_up — 7
- Peace Formula 3 years agoAs a conditioned soul and aparadhi who has disobeyed Srila Prabhupada's instructions not to change his books or philosophy JAS is definitely in for a surprise at the change of body.
Wouldn't want to be him.
Sins are sins but just imagine offending one of Krishna's Pure Devotees in such a way.- thumb_up — 4
- William Scott 3 years agoJAS can not provide proof that Srila Prabhupada didn't intended to continue to be everyone's guru Acharya
JAS can never proof a negative.- thumb_up — 3
- Apna_Bharat 3 years agoYou all who have no idea of about Indian Guru Parampara system are exactly ill minded
There have no many guru paramparas in india since time immorial but there has been no, in which one takes initiation from Guru Deity , This idea is exactly like Abrahmic Religions
I am not advocating iskcon but advocating to Guru Parampara i just heard about iskcon's fraction who gives Diksha from Guru Deity, btw i am from Ramanand Shri Sampradaya
What are your idea of qualification of Guru?
One must become Guru, one should follow guru's orders exactly and make disciples
There are still many bonafide spiritual Gurus of Shri, Bramha sampradayas who are preaching Vedic knowledge abd having staunch Guru Parampara system
Taking Initiation from a Guru Murti can never be accepted in indian culture - Apna_Bharat 3 years agoParampara must go on in any way, else this type of System will become like Abrahmics religions
- Apna_Bharat 3 years agoWe Indians had already suffred too much from these abrahmics type of ideas from last 1000 years ,
- William Scott 3 years agoThe eternal parampara is not a question of continuing or stopping,the parampara is always available in the distribution of its unchanged message. If the parampara were depending on the physical presence of the Acharya,who is a perfect and fully realized soul,the parampara will have stopped being delivered by the absence of the Acharya. "Connection with parampara means,accepting the principles of parampara"(quote). It is a mutual exchange between the message of parampara and the inquirer student. Persons who have no training on spiritual science misunderstand this fact.
- William Scott 3 years agoIs there any problem with the Abrahamic religions, represented by their particular Acharyas like Muhammad and Jesus in their particular Parampara???
- Apna_Bharat 3 years ago@williamscott30 My dear Acharyas don't come to Stop Paramparas but to restore it with more strength by making disciples and allowing them to make disciples
You can have discussion with acharyas of Other vaishnav sampradayas in India , No will accept this type of Ritvik systems,
If one have to continue Ritviksm then better to prefer directly to Take initiation from Bhagvan Krsna himself
Do not be fool brother Guru & Continued Guru disciple Parampara is Most important and Highly required in Vedic Culture
No Acharya have ever Put full stop on Guru Parampara System in Indian History - Apna_Bharat 3 years ago@williamscott30 No Problem with respected Mohammad & Jesus's , but the reality & History of abrahmic religions which we have seen as an Indian is full of brutality( we have lived under their Rule ) and these things just came after disappearance of their leaders , people started exactly like ritviks and deviated from true message that's all because everyone spiritual thought that they have relationship with their founder directly and Not had an authorised parampara abd then came people own material motivations which destroyed everything( this is My as an Indian's perspective of abrahmics )
- Apna_Bharat 3 years ago@williamscott30 If Eternal Parampara is not a question then What is Doubt at all
Everywhere there had been Guru Disciple Parampara in Indian vedic history, No Where anyone accepted Deity as Guru
One Must become qualified and accept Disciples and keep progressing ahead and help his disciples by teaching them his Guru's & Krsna's message - William Scott 3 years agoYou are making it all up. Your statements are purely misguided and not supported by Guru Sadhu and Shastras. There is no difference between the spiritual master Murti,picture and instructions and him. If you are not in our guru parampara,then I can understand why you are not familiar with our religion and our conclusions.
- Apna_Bharat 3 years ago@williamscott30 dear sir, yes I am shri sampradaya, but I know my Indian Vedic culture amd Vaishnav Sampradaya and system of Guru Disciple Parampara
Which is common in all vaishnav tradition, and it must be same
Yes there is no difference in Guru murti and Guru himself but that does not mean one can take diksha guru Guru Murti
Guru tests checks or examines that is the student qualified or not then he accept him
Brother Guru makes disciples to continue a Parampara for preaching if your Prabhupada would have wanted a Ritik parampara then he must have followed during his whole time and rather then making own disciples he would have made disciples of his Guru through Ritvik systems
In my Parampara our there are helper acharyas(ritviks) who help Guru in many things according to Gurus order and when Guru disappears then they Preach on the behalf of their Guru and Continue Guru Parampara as it had been done by their predecessors
One should become qualified and accept Disciples, it's vedic system - Apna_Bharat 3 years ago@williamscott30 by the way brother I had enough strong knowledge and understanding of Vedic vaishnav Preaching system and Indian vedic society and vaishnav Parampara's conclusion
And I have deep Respect for Prabhupada ji and his current disciples who are tirelessly Working Hard to Preach Krishna's divine message , I had personally met many of them in New Delhi
Jai Shri Ram Dear friend
Bhaktisoul 3 years agoThese are the times when discussions were open and available to all-- thumb_up — 34
- Manu Das First Person Seva 2 years ago⏩RITVIK SYSTEM OF INITIATION⏪
📝INITIATIONS AFTER 1977 — POSITION PAPER (available in many languages)
https://www.iskm.international/initiations-ritvik-system/initiations-after-1977/
▶️ Ritvik — A Bona Fide System (available in many languages)
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQGHF3mp1o7_wGn1GTX_-i_sk5Z8u1Z8z&si=mjQa3Jie4KAF9Fzi
▶️ The Ṛtvik System of Initiations - Course
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQGHF3mp1o789PKRgjtfAK9mW7irlqbVe&si=243IRL53keVQMGhK
▶️ Unbiased Analytical Study Of Ritvik Initiation | Part 1
https://youtu.be/wOUP8MiUnEg?si=jV2JU5-e_I9kBf1I
▶️ Unbiased Analytical Study Of Ritvik Initiation | Part 2
https://youtu.be/McB_-SpqZxs?si=X0BKjR0XT_V3-v9C
▶️ Replying to anti-ritvik argument - Q&A #3
https://youtu.be/Dg_-Mc1_jOs?si=X8cR2yP7WVle3YPy
▶️ Newly found evidence supporting the Ritvik System of Initiation! Must Watch
https://youtu.be/Xxspb64aP1o?si=37cSMJ2OpdnRAZRQ
🆕▶️ Prabhupada's Rtvik System As It Is - ISKCON Leaders Exposed (Hindi Subs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxodlaOGmGM
tzzogg 4 years ago*ONCE POLITICAL POWER HAS BEEN SIEZED BY MEN WITH BLACK HEARTS, THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE HAS BEEN USURPED FOREVER, AND THE SYSTEM OF OLIGARCH-RULED COMMUNISM STAYS FIXED IN PLACE. THE RULE OF VIASHNAVISM IS THAT ONE CANNOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITIES, BECASUE THAT IS CONSIDERED AN 'APARADHA,: THUS, BY SILENCING THE MASSES, THE CONTAMINATED THIEVES, WOLFS IN SHEEPS CLOTHING, RULE THE HEN-HOUSE WITH IMPUNITY, FOREVER. THE SLAVERY CONTINUES, IN THE FORM OF 'KRISHNA'S MERCY.'*
- Максим Хоронеко 4 years agoHare Krishna! Can anyone share subtitles to the video or make them for non-english speaking devoties? Thank you! Hare Krishna prabhus!
- thumb_up — 3
Gaming Baron 3 years agoYou can just turn on captions by clicking on [cc] icon above and for auto-translation ( it may be inaccurate) by clicking on settings icon.
Hare Kṛṣṇa 🙏🏻- Максим Хоронеко 3 years ago@gamingbaron2768 )) I know! But it is too inaccurate. Thank you. I even could to pay anyone who made this subtitles (i will pay 50$)!
- Gaming Baron 3 years ago@manhole1984 Hare Kṛṣṇa!! I can do this for you for free. I don't want any money. But It'll take me around 15 days to generate accurate Subtitles as I stay busy. So if you could please wait for some days then I'm ready to do that for ya..
- thumb_up — 2
- Максим Хоронеко 3 years ago@gamingbaron2768 Hare Krsna, pabhu! Please accept my obeisances. Thank you very much for your offer. Of course I'll wait. After that, I will translate this transcription into my native language and share with others, and other devotees will also be able to translate it to their languages. I think that it is very rare and interesting video. Thanks again and looking forward to it. Hare Krsna!
- Максим Хоронеко 2 years ago@gamingbaron2768 Hare Krishna. I wanted to ask. Could you please finish the subtitles for the video in English, prabhu?
- Gaming Baron 2 years ago@manhole1984 Hare Krishna Prabhu! But if we've to add subtitles to this video, we've to contact the owner of this video first of he approves only then we can write subtitles...or otherwise we've to upload it on another channel with correct subtitles
- Gaming Baron 2 years ago@manhole1984 Hare Krishna Prabhu! But if we've to add subtitles to this video, we've to contact the owner of this video first of he approves only then we can write subtitles...or otherwise we've to upload it on another channel with correct subtitles
- Максим Хоронеко 2 years ago@gamingbaron2768 When english subtitles will be finished i will publish it on my youtube channel with english subs + russian dubbing. And give here in the comments a link for everyone.
Richard Saint John 4 years agoWhen a cult leader dies. The organization always goes down the drain.- thumb_up — 3
- Jed Steelwell 4 years agoAfter Prahbupad I've honestly only seen a couple of people I'd say are worthy of Guru. I have seen a lot of rascals who aren't doing the work of Prahbupad but doing things for their own gain.
- thumb_up — 10
Varun Maturkar 2 years agoIf Radhanath Maharaj and Gopal Krishna Goswami Maharaj aren't gurus then we don't deserve to be devotees- thumb_up — 1
abhinav agarwal 2 years ago@varunmaturkar4474 there are many many low profile pure devotee gurus also who aren't GBC. Simply doing katha and guiding disciples- Varun Maturkar 2 years ago@abhinavagarwal7029 There are multiple sanyasis in Ritvik system with the same trait.
- Jed Steelwell 2 years ago@varunmaturkar4474as far as Radanath goes you might want to remind yourself that he helped kirtinananda commit crime at New Vrindavan as covered in the book killing for Krishna.
- thumb_up — 2
dandapro 4 years agoThe obsession is with wanting to be someone in the parampara system with your name in some newly fangled BG.- thumb_up — 4
- Aaron Montiel 3 years agoThis is exactly what I was thinking this morning... The want to leave a legacy after Srila Prabhupada's
Janārdan-Hari Dās 4 years agoWith regard to the last point debated, the detractors are arguing the Śrīla Prabhupāda wrote it was custom 'not to initiate in the presence of the Spiritual Master', which is at best indirect evidence by the detractors of the ritvik posthumous system. It is by no means comparable in common law evidential 'weightiness', to a written document regarding future initiations signed by the Founder-Achārya of ISKCON (that was to be distributed to all contemporaneous temple presidents). Maharaj argues that obfuscated evidence (tapes presumably removed from the ministry and later destroyed) proves that Śrīla Prabhupāda did not expound on this ritvik system, which is highly-irrational and illogical at best. Other considerations such as providing motivation for premature removal of the Achārya by ambitious disciples (as occurred with HDG Śrīla Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj) was not discussed. Very unconvincing and amateurish performance by the detractors. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.- thumb_up — 1
gaurange108 3 years agoIt is you and your Maharaja thinking irrationally NOT executed document clearly stating appointments of Prabhupad Acarya system of initiations, made by Prabhupad self. How dare you to utter any word after such precise CEO's letter regarding initiation? By 1978 all devotees left isckon. ALL! Just 5% stayed...;-(
Exposing Ritvik Vada Scam /The Ritvik Hunter! 4 years agoRitvik system can not operate after Prabhupada's departure! Get educated! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVqeFtB0XCo&t=669s, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep6-eXOBgSo&t=10s
- Susan Horsfall 4 years agoHow is the moral integrity judged of those whom you are placing your trust.
Jackboot Shaman Gaming 4 years agoThey ripped the GBC apart. Why they didn't do the second day of debates- thumb_up — 6
Biren R 4 years agoThis is my Narayana-astra for the Ritvik debate.
Ritviks are not able to give answer. Ofcourse they love to play with cherry picked quotes!
If Srila Prabhupada wants the ritvik system to go for eternity, why is there no such proof in his writing? Give me a clear statement!
Why would Srila Prabhupada neglect to mention something as important as this ritvik system in writing?
Why? Why? Why?
Any sane person should accept this fact that there is no such proof!
75-09-02.Omk Letter: Omkara
"Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.”
68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta
"Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program."
From this statement it is abundantly clear that Prabhupada’s mission from the very beginning was to educate his disciples so some of them would become qualified diksa gurus and initiate their own disciples. He wants to transfer the title of Bhaktivedanta and the power to preach and accept disciples to his disciples. He clearly states that “this is my program.” The qualification is there… One must pass the examination on all the books… “Our students must be well versed in all of our books so they are prepared to defeat all opposing parties in the matter of self-realization.”
Considering the statements of Srila Prabhupada quoted above and the hundreds of others along the same lines it is completely bizarre for Krishna Kant to claim: “There is no evidence of Srila Prabhupada issuing specific orders for his disciples to become diksa gurus.” It is the statement of a crazy fellow.- thumb_up — 5
- Biren R 3 years ago@ElFresco214 they are not proof of any kind. Ritviks have been cheating for many years. Now this should be stopped immediately.
- gaurange108 3 years agoYOU ARE SUCH TROL FUCKED UP IDIOT. DID YOU HEAR EVER FOR GLASSES SPECTACLES? CAN YOU READ OR THAT BASIC ABILITY HAD BEEN REMOVED FROM YOU BY FOLLOWING BOGUS SYSTEM YOU ARE EMPOWERING WITH YOUR ASTRA GARBIGE?
- Apna_Bharat 3 years ago@ElFresco214You all who have no idea of about Indian Guru Parampara system are exactly ill minded
There have no many guru paramparas in india since time immorial but there has been no, in which one takes initiation from Guru Deity , This idea is exactly like Abrahmic Religions
I am not advocating iskcon but advocating to Guru Parampara i just heard about iskcon's fraction who gives Diksha from Guru Deity, btw i am from Ramanand Shri Sampradaya
What are your idea of qualification of Guru?
One must become Guru, one should follow guru's orders exactly and make disciples
There are still many bonafide spiritual Gurus of Shri, Bramha sampradayas who are preaching Vedic knowledge abd having staunch Guru Parampara system
Taking Initiation from a Guru Murti can never be accepted in indian culture - Manu Das First Person Seva 2 years ago⏩RITVIK SYSTEM OF INITIATION⏪
📝INITIATIONS AFTER 1977 — POSITION PAPER (available in many languages)
https://www.iskm.international/initiations-ritvik-system/initiations-after-1977/
▶️ Ritvik — A Bona Fide System (available in many languages)
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQGHF3mp1o7_wGn1GTX_-i_sk5Z8u1Z8z&si=mjQa3Jie4KAF9Fzi
▶️ The Ṛtvik System of Initiations - Course
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQGHF3mp1o789PKRgjtfAK9mW7irlqbVe&si=243IRL53keVQMGhK
▶️ Unbiased Analytical Study Of Ritvik Initiation | Part 1
https://youtu.be/wOUP8MiUnEg?si=jV2JU5-e_I9kBf1I
▶️ Unbiased Analytical Study Of Ritvik Initiation | Part 2
https://youtu.be/McB_-SpqZxs?si=X0BKjR0XT_V3-v9C
▶️ Replying to anti-ritvik argument - Q&A #3
https://youtu.be/Dg_-Mc1_jOs?si=X8cR2yP7WVle3YPy
▶️ Newly found evidence supporting the Ritvik System of Initiation! Must Watch
https://youtu.be/Xxspb64aP1o?si=37cSMJ2OpdnRAZRQ
🆕▶️ Prabhupada's Rtvik System As It Is - ISKCON Leaders Exposed (Hindi Subs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxodlaOGmGM
Rosario Musumeci 4 years agoRupa Vilasa is trying to twist everything......That piece of evidence from SP is all we need to go about as it is clear, definite, coherent with the traditional vaishnava's precepts, etc...etc...In the philosophy of Vaishnavism not acarya will ever declare himself the last of the acarya as it is contradictory to the sacred principle of guru-parampara which SP always said it is our system. Rtivik means "only during the physical presence of the guru " the disciple is authorized to perform the fire sacrifice and give initiation. After the guru disappearance the disciple can accept disciples on his own and take another level or kind of responsibility in the preaching field. He doesn't have to be a pure devotee but a devotee capable to present scientifically the philosophy and he must have a good character. Those are the qualifications presented by Lord Caitanya Himself.- thumb_up — 3
- Aaron Montiel 3 years agoWhy should I accept someone who hasn't benefitted my life in any way.... I was convinced on Krishna Consciousness by only reading Srila Prabhupadas books, he convinced me on everything. Now I'm being told I can't accept Srila Prabhupada as my Diksa Guru but must accept someone I don't even know that didn't show me the way back to Godhead.... July 9 letter is pretty clear. To think Srila Prabhupada didn't know his departure was near and only gave the ritvik system 4 months is crazy
- thumb_up — 3
Sudama das 3 years agoAgree. And Lord Caitanyas mood was to be the servant of the servant of the servant of the Krishna, the master of the gopis. Even amongst the gopis there is a hierarchy. Krishna's vani is there in Bhagavad Gita. So why did he have to send Srila Prabhupada. Just let it rain Bhagavad gitas all of the world and that will be fine. But that's impersonal. The guru disciple relationship is personal and intimate. Why did Srila Bhaktisidhanta Saraseati beg initiation from Gaura Kishore das babaji Maharaj? He could have just excepted him mentally as his guru, followed his teachings and consider himself to be accepted. But in the contrary, he was actually rejected at first. So, how can any assume Prabhupada will accept him/her? What if it turns out that Prabhupada never accepted you?- Peace Formula 3 years ago@ElFresco214It was Krishna as the Caitya Guru who gave you faith in Srila Prabhupada's books, Shastra.
"I make their faith steady..."
That same Caitya Guru when He steps outside and assunes a form is a Bonafide Diksa or Siksa Guru.
Every soul must come to the point of crying and praying to Krishna to become a real Devotee and Krishna will send His Representative to that sincere soul.
Krishna chooses who He will use as the Guru, the Guru is a via medium of Krishna though the experience is still direct.
Jus t because there is counterfeit money doesn't mean there is no real money.
Krishna knows who is His own man.
Ranjeet Singh Chauhan 4 years agoRitvik system will disappear in future very soon. They are just group of devotees who are reluctant to accept teachings of Srila Prabhupada and our previous Acharya.- thumb_up — 6
- Aaron Montiel 3 years agoOn the contraire, you had your time to speculate on how to carry on ISKCON and Srila Prabhupadas desires... The truth will come to light, Srila Prabhupada said himself 50 years and lies will come out... We are close
- thumb_up — 2
- gaurange108 3 years ago @Jagabandhu Nayak LISTEN YOU ATTEMPTING POLITE BHAKTI YOGI, STOP SWITCHING ISSUES! YOU JUMP LIKE MONKEY. IT IS NOT ABOUT BEING POLITE OR PRAYING. IT IS ABOUT GRAVE DANGER WHER IF COMMIT MISTAKE YOU WILL TOTALLY GET DIFFERENT OUTCOME. DID YOU EVER TRIED TO CHANGE ONE PARAMETER IN FORMULA? TRY! THAN COME HERE AGAIN WITH POLITING THE MISTAKEN PARAMETER IN FORMULA AND SEE IF IT WILL HELP AGAINST ORIGINAL FORMULA. YOUR TWISTED MIND DOES NOT SEE GRAVE DANGER BUT PERPETUITY OF PRESENT BOGUS SITUATION AND NORMALIZING IT SOMEHOW. NO NORMALIZATION OF WRONG FORMULA, PERIOD WAKEUP!! PLEASE!!!
''
@Digital108 WHAT DO YOU WANT; TO SPECULATE OR relaying ON DOCUMENTED ISSUE? PRABHUPAD GOT FROM THE LORD KRISHNA GARLAND, PHYSICALLY DID ANYONE IN 'POST-PRABHUPADA TIME' EVER REPEAT THE SAME? YES OR NO?'' - Apna_Bharat 3 years ago@Vigilante1944You all who have no idea of about Indian Guru Parampara system are exactly ill minded
There have no many guru paramparas in india since time immorial but there has been no, in which one takes initiation from Guru Deity , This idea is exactly like Abrahmic Religions
I am not advocating iskcon but advocating to Guru Parampara i just heard about iskcon's fraction who gives Diksha from Guru Deity, btw i am from Ramanand Shri Sampradaya
What are your idea of qualification of Guru?
One must become Guru, one should follow guru's orders exactly and make disciples
There are still many bonafide spiritual Gurus of Shri, Bramha sampradayas who are preaching Vedic knowledge abd having staunch Guru Parampara system
Taking Initiation from a Guru Murti can never be accepted in indian culture
Bonafide spirituality 4 years agoThe solution was to be like this- every one should have presented their views very very humble honest manner with saying my dear/respected spiritual brothers I/we think n feel srila Prabhupada wanted this/that but I/ we are not the authority so please consider this topic n do take decision as you like to be proper n even if I/we disagree still we will tolarate n cooperate to please Prabhupada. Because there is no one man authority after Prabhupada there must be some misunderstanding etc. It's all to be decided by GBC n all should have followed or pray n depend complete ly on the mercy of gurugouranga n not fight n spread the negativity of our brothers- thumb_up — 3
- gaurange108 3 years agoTHERE IS NO NEGATIVITY. THERE IS ONLY TRUTH OR FALSITY. THATS ALL. IT IS YOUR DEGREE OF MERCY IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE ABSOLUTE FEELING/KNOWING/INNERSTANDING CERTAIN TOPICS.
@Digital108 WHAT DO YOU WANT; TO SPECULATE OR relaying ON DOCUMENTED ISSUE? PRABHUPAD GOT FROM THE LORD KRISHNA GARLAND, PHYSICALLY DID ANYONE IN 'POST-PRABHUPADA TIME' EVER REPEAT THE SAME? YES OR NO?
- Bonafide spirituality 4 years agoWhen srila Prabhupada was present some disciples tried to be guru n he stopped them by saying it's not the etiquette, so after his departure devotees became guru now if Prabhupada come back then which way he can stop?
- thumb_up — 1
Krishna Tube 4 years agoOnly qualified person who is actually surrendered to and empowered by his pure devotee spiritual master has the power to preach Krishna consciousness. It is like electricity. If you are not connected to the source, you don't get any power from your wires and your machines don't work.
So people can pretend to be gurus, and there are unlimited disciples who don't want a real guru, they don't want to surrender, they don't want to work for Krishna 24 hours a day. But they want to make a show of being a great devotee.
So this business is going on perpetually cheating gurus and their cheating disciples.
Hardly anyone actually wants to surrender to Krishna. So the cheating gurus, who are not surrendered to Krishna themselves, they are there, and they can be very popular and gather lots of so-called disciples who are not surrendered to the guru and not surrendered to Krishna and just make a show of being devotees.
But they are all going to Hell. The worst Hellish planet is reserved for those engaged in the guru business...- thumb_up — 6
- Ranjeet Singh Chauhan 4 years ago@KrishnaTube With due respect prabhu, don't try to judge other senior devotees of Srila Prabhupada on how much they are surrendered. Srila Prabhupada disciples are working day and night to make this society run and expand continuously.
You should worry about your own level of surrender and not others. Let people decide by themselves how bogus is this ritvik system.- thumb_up — 2
Bill Morehouse 4 years agoThe Ṛṭvik System is Authorised
by Kṛṣṇakānt
23/8/06
Śrī Nandanandana dās (Stephen Knapp) has attacked Śrīla Prabhupāda's authorised Ṛṭvik (initiation) system in a talk which he gave at the Detroit temple on 13/8/2006. The talk was titled, “The Guru and the Power of the Parampara”. Śrī Nandanandana Prabhu’s (henceforward to be called the author) talk will be analysed below, with his comments enclosed in speech marks thus “”.
The author opens his attack on Śrīla Prabhupāda's Ṛṭvik system with a classic straw-man argument:
“Therefore, the so-called ritvik system that some people proclaim to follow, by which it is assumed that a person can become initiated and still be Srila Prabhupada’s direct disciple, is nothing but conjecture.”
The ‘so-called Ṛṭvik system’ was actually established by Śrīla Prabhupāda and it gave full authority to ‘Ṛṭviks' to initiate persons on behalf of Śrīla Prabhupāda, without reference to Śrīla Prabhupāda:
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there’s no need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. They can write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your disciples. Anybody who gives initiation is doing so on your behalf.
Prabhupada:Yes. [Ṛṭviks are named by Śrīla Prabhupāda]
Prabhupada: So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is right... That will depend on discretion.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On discretion.
Prabhupāda:Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s for first and second initiations.
Prabhupada: Hm. (July 7th, 1977, Room Conversation)
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Śrīla Prabhupāda has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
(July 9th, 1977, Directive to all GBCs and Temple Presidents)
So clearly the Ṛṭvik system does not ‘assume’ one is initiated as Śrīla Prabhupāda's disciple. Rather the initiation was supposed to be given on Śrīla Prabhupāda's behalf via a system he authorised, and therefore Śrīla Prabhupāda already approved all those who would be initiated via the Ṛṭviks.
The author himself states the following:
“Herein we can see that in every aspect of this purport it indicates an ongoing personal relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. […]In this way, the guru asks and overseas in a personal way the progress of the disciple and makes sure he or she is understanding things properly. If there are any doubts, or illusions or remaining ignorance, it is the duty of the guru to sweep such illusions away from the disciple so the disciple can continue progressing appropriately. But the guru takes the interest to see how the disciple is progressing. And the disciple also is able to express any such doubts to the guru for clarification. This is the essential relationship between the guru and disciple as illustrated by Lord Krishna Himself and explained here by Srila Prabhupada.”
So pray tell us, WHO has been ‘overseeing in a personal way’ the ‘ongoing’ relationship between Śrīla Prabhupāda and the author for the last 30 years? To WHOM has the author been expressing his doubts for clarification for the last 30 years? If the answer is Śrīla Prabhupāda, then there is nothing to prevent anyone else having the same personal relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda, since he too can become connected to Śrīla Prabhupāda formally via the Ritvik initiation system which Śrīla Prabhupāda himself authorised.
“So as in the case with Srila Prabhupada, he was a pure devotee and was certainly powerful enough to make other pure devotees. Some of these devotees may take the position of spiritual master and take disciples while others may not. But we should understand that through sincerely following Srila Prabhupada and repeating his instructions, we become empowered by the whole line of previous acharyas. So those who take the position of spiritual master will certainly be able to give the potency of the whole sampradaya by sincerely following the instructions and giving the teachings that have come down through the sampradaya.”
But, in order for a Dīkṣā-guru to be able to follow Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions, he first needs an instruction for himself to become a Dīkṣā-guru successor to Śrīla Prabhupāda. But WHERE is this instruction from Śrīla Prabhupāda authorising Dīkṣā-guru successors to himself? It has been 30 years and the GBC still are unable to present the instruction from Śrīla Prabhupāda which states that:
a) He will stop being the Dīkṣā-guru for ISKCON on his departure, and therefore the 11 Ṛṭviks he appointed to act on his behalf will stop acting as such on his departure.
b) The 11 Ṛṭviks will transmogrify into Dīkṣā-guru successors to Śrīla Prabhupāda upon Śrīla Prabhupāda's departure.
Indeed, not only have the GBC not been able to present such an instruction, but they have continually changed what they claim Śrīla Prabhupāda did supposedly instruct. The GBC first assumed that Śrīla Prabhupāda was to be removed as the Dīkṣā-guru for ISKCON on his departure. They then further assumed that only the 11 persons he appointed as Ṛṭviks were to become ‘successor zonal Ācāryas’ to Śrīla Prabhupāda. They then later assumed that actually anyone who gets a majority vote from the GBC can become a successor Ācārya.
Thus what is ACTUALLY ‘assumed’ and ‘conjectured’ is the GBC program that any Śrīla Prabhupāda disciple can ‘assume’ himself to be the successor Dīkṣā-guru to Śrīla Prabhupāda, without any order from Śrīla Prabhupāda to do so.
So it is the Ṛṭvik system which has been authorised by Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the current ‘anyone except Śrīla Prabhupāda's can be Dīkṣā-guru' GBC system which has been concocted out of thin air.- thumb_up — 3
- gaurange108 3 years ago@ranjeet436 DO NOT JUMP FROM THE TOPIC!!! PLEASE!!!
@Digital108 WHAT DO YOU WANT; TO SPECULATE OR relaying ON DOCUMENTED ISSUE? PRABHUPAD GOT FROM THE LORD KRISHNA GARLAND, PHYSICALLY DID ANYONE IN 'POST-PRABHUPADA TIME' EVER REPEAT THE SAME? YES OR NO? - Ranjeet Singh Chauhan 3 years ago@gaurange1087 Read about kartabhaj sahajiya. You will understand it better .
- Bonafide spirituality 4 years agoGuru Krishna n Krishna conciouseness they all are subject of revelation, why speculate. Pray n pray n pray only by mercy there is solution. We're the most spiritual ly educated devotees of the world but if we say just by speculation that there is no more possiblity of pure devotees/ bonafide guru/authority after srila Prabhupada no matter how much you pray n cry then what have we learned? Ask me I will show how srila Prabhupada authorized one of his disciples gouragovinda maharaj n how power full he was.
amar puri 4 years agoSrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sajana Toshani (18.2.13-14)
“After the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, those faithful to Him kept apart from non devotees, to avoid contamination. Seeing this, the personality of Kali sent his representatives in disguise to pollute the Vaisnava sampradaya. Posing as Vaisnavas, they spread their wicked doctrines, and appeared so intelligent and devoted that only pure devotees could detect their real identity. “
(Which Srila Prabhupada has so kindly pointed out in his talks and books-for our benefit-but if we dont read or hear them-then what??)
Śrī Guru-Tattva and the Secret of Dīkṣā (By: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda)
Sri Guru Tattva and the Secret of Diksa (Part 3)
Rajen Babu: Isn’t the kanistha-adhikari qualified to give initiation into the mantra?
Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada: Where is the kanishtha-adhikari coming from? Who gave him the adhikara? A kanishtha-adhikari can never become a guru.
Rajen Babu: Can a madhyama-adhikari give diksa?
Prabhupada: He can only perform the initial duties of diksa. It is the uttama adhikari maha-bhagavata Vaisnava who is actually the diksa-guru. There are two types of Vaisnavas – the ragatmika and the raganuga. Those who are from the eternal realm offer service to Sri Krsna directly. These ragatmikas serve Sri Varshabhanavi and Her direct expansions. Those who perform direct service to the ragatmikas and take shelter in them through the performance of smarana are raganugas. These are spiritual gurus.
(Page 15)
If the guru becomes attached to sense gratification, loses his sense of duty, and follows a degraded path, a path other than devotional service to the Lord, he should be rejected. (Mahabharata, Udyoga Parva 179.25)
Sept 2 1970 letter.....
I have tried to give you all Krsna Consciousness, now it is your duty to develop it. If you remain strong on the spiritual platform then your progress will not be checked or blocked. I do not know what was resolved in New Vrindavan although Sriman Rupanuga Prabhu has informed others that he has sent a tape in this connection. I am still in darkness about the proceedings in New Vrndavana, but I have heard that Brahmananda is preaching about me that I am Krsna, that I am Supersoul, that I have withdrawn my mercy from the disciples, that I have left the Society and so on. I do not know how far they are correct, but I have written him a letter that he may not do something which may harm the interest of the Society. You are also one of the members of the GBC, so you can think over very deeply how to save the situation. It is a fact however that the great sinister movement is within our Society. I have not heard anything from Krsna das or Syamasundara., so all of you may try to save the Society from this dangerous position.
Madhya 24.330 purport....The mahā-bhāgavata is one who decorates his body with tilaka and whose name indicates him to be a servant of Kṛṣṇa by the word dāsa. He is also initiated by a bona fide spiritual master and is expert in worshiping the Deity, chanting mantras correctly, performing sacrifices, offering prayers to the Lord, and performing saṅkīrtana. He knows how to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead and how to respect a Vaiṣṇava. When one has attained the topmost position of mahā-bhāgavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.
Some Conclusions-We can understand from the above, why Srila Bhaktisdhanta maharaja told our Prabhupada and his other GM disciples that it was OK for our Prabhupada to remain "separate" from the Gaudiya matha (GM). Seems trouble was already brewing in the Gaudiya matha.
In these few short quotes it is very clear that a kanistha adhikari devotee can never become guru AND only a pure devotee mahabhagavat Vaisnava CAN become guru/spirituao master/acarya. But how many devotees have understood this? The answer was given above.
NOTE ; The above is compiled by Shriman Damagosha Dasa, a staunch follower of Jagat Guru His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
ys...... amar puri.- thumb_up — 2
- gaurange108 3 years agoYOU SPECULATE. YOU SAY LIKE ISCKON GURUS ''BUT THERE IS ...'' ALTHOUG PRABHUPAD PUT IT DOWN THREE TIMES ON PAPER
- amar puri 4 years agoPrahlāda Mahārāja, who says, “If I must take some benediction from You, I pray that within the core of my heart there may be no material desires.”
So these Iskcon gurus of all kinds in shape, size and style did not learn any transcendental knowledge of understanding with regard to serve Jagat Guru His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada let alone serving the Lord. No Material Desire, even becoming a Guru replacing Srila Prabhupada when He did not authorize any of his disciples as a successor to become guru is not a sign of a Kanishtha platform. So, how any body at the lowest platform in the disguise of a Vaishnava become guru and accept disciples. That is a pure Cheating. Only a Cheater get cheated by these so called gurus because the disciples are not sincere like their guru. It is very simple. Only Srila Prabhupada is the Pure Devotee who is present in His VANI while VAPU is absent. That is it and that's all. OM TAT SAT. Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.- thumb_up — 5
- Bonafide spirituality 4 years agoThat's the problem, we are conditioned souls still say there is no bonafide successor of srila Prabhupada, where from u learned to say like this. Has Prabhupada said it? Just let me ask a humble question why there is no Indian devotees who are comparilbly in good/no falling down name in the July 9th ritvic letter.
- amar puri 4 years ago@jagabandhunayak6882 ; A bonafide realised soul - Spiritually advanced personality follows through the previous i.e. his Spiritual Master's Instructions, in this case Srila Prabhupada's Instructions as Srila Prabhupada himself followed the Instructions of His Gurumaharaja Srila Bhakti Sidhanta Sarsvati Goswami Thakur.
In this way, any Spiritually advanced personality protects and promotes the bonafide Instructions of the Acaraya in the disciplic succession. The present Acaraya His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada did not authorise any of his disciples as a Successor Guru but he left the instructions to be carried forward in the system of continued Initiations on going while he is absent. So, where is the problem for a Spiritually advanced devotee not to follow through His Guru's Instructions ? Unless the person has a personal motive of some sort to become guru himself. Is it NOT true ? It means simply that he becomes attached to sense gratification. Therefore, he is not an advanced personality. Please read the following quote ;
" If the guru becomes attached to sense gratification, loses his sense of duty, and follows a degraded path, a path other than devotional service to the Lord, he should be rejected." (Mahabharata, Udyoga Parva 179.25) - Bonafide spirituality 4 years ago@shriamarpuri that's ok . Prabhu, but now that there is disagreement , we all are conditioned souls, so better tolarate be humble n pray pray pray n die but not leave organization n not spread the mistakes of devotees. Why should a vaishnava who is sieve fight against another vaishnava a needle. It's mercy that solves problem not our endeavor. According to Prabhupada both fighters are asara, useless. Only guru has authority to correct.
- thumb_up — 1
- amar puri 4 years ago@jagabandhunayak6882 If you accept what you say " Only guru has authority to correct."
then, why not accept Srila Prabhupada's Instructions what he says as quoted in my comments ? Do you accept Srila Prabhupada's Instructions ? If yes, then, reject all non-sense and simply take shelter in the Srila Prabhupada's VANI as it is. That is desirable. Isn't it ? Where is the problem ? OM TAT SAT. - amar puri 4 years ago@jagabandhunayak6882 How can I say Srila Prabhupada authorized none is in His VANI - instructions. You need to read Srila Prabhupada's Instructions. If you are not reading Srila Prabhupada's BOOKS non-adulterated, letters, lectures etc.etc., you are lost. You need to follow through Srila Prabhupada's VANI as it is to make your life sublime in cultivating Krishna Consciousness. Hope you do read and follow through if you are sincere and serious. OM TAT SAT.
- gaurange108 3 years ago@jagabandhunayak6882 LISTEN YOU ATTEMPTING POLITE BHAKTI YOGI, STOP SWITCHING ISSUES! YOU JUMP LIKE MONKEY. IT IS NOT ABOUT BEING POLITE OR PRAYING. IT IS ABOUT GRAVE DANGER WHER IF COMMIT MISTAKE YOU WILL TOTALLY GET DIFFERENT OUTCOME. DID YOU EVER TRIED TO CHANGE ONE PARAMETER IN FORMULA? TRY! THAN COME HERE AGAIN WITH POLITING THE MISTAKEN PARAMETER IN FORMULA AND SEE IF IT WILL HELP AGAINST ORIGINAL FORMULA. YOUR TWISTED MIND DOES NOT SEE GRAVE DANGER BUT PERPETUITY OF PRESENT BOGUS SITUATION AND NORMALIZING IT SOMEHOW. NO NORMALIZATION OF WRONG FORMULA, PERIOD WAKEUP!! PLEASE!!!
''
@Digital108 WHAT DO YOU WANT; TO SPECULATE OR relaying ON DOCUMENTED ISSUE? PRABHUPAD GOT FROM THE LORD KRISHNA GARLAND, PHYSICALLY DID ANYONE IN 'POST-PRABHUPADA TIME' EVER REPEAT THE SAME? YES OR NO?''
gaurange108 - gaurange108 3 years ago@jagabandhunayak6882 The first instruction is to seek carefully Guru. Second, depends on the first...
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- amar puri 4 years agoSrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sajana Toshani (18.2.13-14)
“After the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, those faithful to Him kept apart from non devotees, to avoid contamination. Seeing this, the personality of Kali sent his representatives in disguise to pollute the Vaisnava sampradaya. Posing as Vaisnavas, they spread their wicked doctrines, and appeared so intelligent and devoted that only pure devotees could detect their real identity. “
(Which Srila Prabhupada has so kindly pointed out in his talks and books-for our benefit-but if we dont read or hear them-then what??)
Śrī Guru-Tattva and the Secret of Dīkṣā (By: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda)
Sri Guru Tattva and the Secret of Diksa (Part 3)
Rajen Babu: Isn’t the kanistha-adhikari qualified to give initiation into the mantra?
Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada: Where is the kanishtha-adhikari coming from? Who gave him the adhikara? A kanishtha-adhikari can never become a guru.
Rajen Babu: Can a madhyama-adhikari give diksa?
Prabhupada: He can only perform the initial duties of diksa. It is the uttama adhikari maha-bhagavata Vaisnava who is actually the diksa-guru. There are two types of Vaisnavas – the ragatmika and the raganuga. Those who are from the eternal realm offer service to Sri Krsna directly. These ragatmikas serve Sri Varshabhanavi and Her direct expansions. Those who perform direct service to the ragatmikas and take shelter in them through the performance of smarana are raganugas. These are spiritual gurus.
(Page 15)
If the guru becomes attached to sense gratification, loses his sense of duty, and follows a degraded path, a path other than devotional service to the Lord, he should be rejected. (Mahabharata, Udyoga Parva 179.25)
Sept 2 1970 letter.....
I have tried to give you all Krsna Consciousness, now it is your duty to develop it. If you remain strong on the spiritual platform then your progress will not be checked or blocked. I do not know what was resolved in New Vrindavan although Sriman Rupanuga Prabhu has informed others that he has sent a tape in this connection. I am still in darkness about the proceedings in New Vrndavana, but I have heard that Brahmananda is preaching about me that I am Krsna, that I am Supersoul, that I have withdrawn my mercy from the disciples, that I have left the Society and so on. I do not know how far they are correct, but I have written him a letter that he may not do something which may harm the interest of the Society. You are also one of the members of the GBC, so you can think over very deeply how to save the situation. It is a fact however that the great sinister movement is within our Society. I have not heard anything from Krsna das or Syamasundara., so all of you may try to save the Society from this dangerous position.
Madhya 24.330 purport....The mahā-bhāgavata is one who decorates his body with tilaka and whose name indicates him to be a servant of Kṛṣṇa by the word dāsa. He is also initiated by a bona fide spiritual master and is expert in worshiping the Deity, chanting mantras correctly, performing sacrifices, offering prayers to the Lord, and performing saṅkīrtana. He knows how to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead and how to respect a Vaiṣṇava. When one has attained the topmost position of mahā-bhāgavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.
Some Conclusions-We can understand from the above, why Srila Bhaktisdhanta maharaja told our Prabhupada and his other GM disciples that it was OK for our Prabhupada to remain "separate" from the Gaudiya matha (GM). Seems trouble was already brewing in the Gaudiya matha.
In these few short quotes it is very clear that a kanistha adhikari devotee can never become guru AND only a pure devotee mahabhagavat Vaisnava CAN become guru/spirituao master/acarya. But how many devotees have understood this? The answer was given above.
NOTE ; The above is compiled by Shriman Damagosha Dasa, a staunch follower of Jagat Guru His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
ys...... amar puri.- thumb_up — 12
Zareen Devraj 2 years agoKALI HAS ANCIENT SANSKRIT NAME KRSNA (HYPHEN ON A)...KALI SHE WHO IS BORN IN ALL CASTES AND CREEDS...the royalty and brahmins of India became corrupt, and began to suffer as applicable ... KALI was predicted to be in america by Her Lord ... and therefore vedic knowledge was meant to spread throughout world coz not easy to predict where KALI NARAYANI DURGA SATI SITA WILL BE, EVEN BY THE LORD... and when SHE KALI becomes attracted by vedic knowledge and looks at Her Lord...then everything is done...so whatever these guys discuss is absolutely unnecessary ... the LORD concerns Himself not with these guys ...
Jurjen van der Hoek 4 years agoJust accepting Srila Prabhupada as the real diksa guru is the safest option. There is nothing wrong with it. He is present in his instructions. Srila Prabhupada himself has stated several times that guru-initiation is just formality, and that the real initiation is being serious in chanting Hare Krsna and following the process.- thumb_up — 103
Marco de Koning 4 years agoHow about this line of Srila Prabhupada in Nectar of Instruction text 5: " A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples..."- thumb_up — 16
- Lloyd McKay 4 years agoWell it is unprecedented and has never occurred in any bona fide sampradaya. There has occured a great bias against accepting any one but Srila Prabhupada as dikshna guru which has led to fanaticism and Vaishnava apparad. Not a good thing to happen in a society of devotees. Very bad in fact. Rittvik is a concoction deviating from the parampara system and it was introduced eight years after Srila Prabhupada's departure simple has a reaction to the Zonal guru and guru falldowns and possibly an envious mentality where -if I can't have such a position then no one should either. Quite possible. Hare Krishna.
- thumb_up — 8
- amar puri 4 years ago@marcodekoning1238 Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sajana Toshani (18.2.13-14)
“After the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, those faithful to Him kept apart from non devotees, to avoid contamination. Seeing this, the personality of Kali sent his representatives in disguise to pollute the Vaisnava sampradaya. Posing as Vaisnavas, they spread their wicked doctrines, and appeared so intelligent and devoted that only pure devotees could detect their real identity. “
(Which Srila Prabhupada has so kindly pointed out in his talks and books-for our benefit-but if we dont read or hear them-then what??)
Śrī Guru-Tattva and the Secret of Dīkṣā (By: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda)
Sri Guru Tattva and the Secret of Diksa (Part 3)
Rajen Babu: Isn’t the kanistha-adhikari qualified to give initiation into the mantra?
Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada: Where is the kanishtha-adhikari coming from? Who gave him the adhikara? A kanishtha-adhikari can never become a guru.
Rajen Babu: Can a madhyama-adhikari give diksa?
Prabhupada: He can only perform the initial duties of diksa. It is the uttama adhikari maha-bhagavata Vaisnava who is actually the diksa-guru. There are two types of Vaisnavas – the ragatmika and the raganuga. Those who are from the eternal realm offer service to Sri Krsna directly. These ragatmikas serve Sri Varshabhanavi and Her direct expansions. Those who perform direct service to the ragatmikas and take shelter in them through the performance of smarana are raganugas. These are spiritual gurus.
(Page 15)
If the guru becomes attached to sense gratification, loses his sense of duty, and follows a degraded path, a path other than devotional service to the Lord, he should be rejected. (Mahabharata, Udyoga Parva 179.25)
Sept 2 1970 letter.....
I have tried to give you all Krsna Consciousness, now it is your duty to develop it. If you remain strong on the spiritual platform then your progress will not be checked or blocked. I do not know what was resolved in New Vrindavan although Sriman Rupanuga Prabhu has informed others that he has sent a tape in this connection. I am still in darkness about the proceedings in New Vrndavana, but I have heard that Brahmananda is preaching about me that I am Krsna, that I am Supersoul, that I have withdrawn my mercy from the disciples, that I have left the Society and so on. I do not know how far they are correct, but I have written him a letter that he may not do something which may harm the interest of the Society. You are also one of the members of the GBC, so you can think over very deeply how to save the situation. It is a fact however that the great sinister movement is within our Society. I have not heard anything from Krsna das or Syamasundara., so all of you may try to save the Society from this dangerous position.
Madhya 24.330 purport....The mahā-bhāgavata is one who decorates his body with tilaka and whose name indicates him to be a servant of Kṛṣṇa by the word dāsa. He is also initiated by a bona fide spiritual master and is expert in worshiping the Deity, chanting mantras correctly, performing sacrifices, offering prayers to the Lord, and performing saṅkīrtana. He knows how to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead and how to respect a Vaiṣṇava. When one has attained the topmost position of mahā-bhāgavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.
Some Conclusions-We can understand from the above, why Srila Bhaktisdhanta maharaja told our Prabhupada and his other GM disciples that it was OK for our Prabhupada to remain "separate" from the Gaudiya matha (GM). Seems trouble was already brewing in the Gaudiya matha.
In these few short quotes it is very clear that a kanistha adhikari devotee can never become guru AND only a pure devotee mahabhagavat Vaisnava CAN become guru/spirituao master/acarya. But how many devotees have understood this? The answer was given above.
NOTE ; The above is compiled by Shriman Damagosha Dasa, a staunch follower of Jagat Guru His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
ys...... amar puri.- thumb_up — 4
Kaushik Kashyap 4 years agoIskcon is now working in 2 parts one is ritvik so I think whatever happened it's will of Krishna cz in future there will be lot of fake guru who may Currupt the whole system so for safety ritvik is there if someone has no confidence in any guru can choose ritvik but at same time there are lot of Great pure gurus right now who is pure devotee and doing great preaching So for future ritvik is created for people who are not confident with available guru at that time.- thumb_up — 6
Divyansh pandey 3 years agoThen Krsna is also present in his vani form let's get initiated by him- thumb_up — 4
Digital108 3 years agoSo Srila Prabhupada was not capable of producing even one mahabhavat...one moonlike devotee then? So Krishna sent Prabhupada but never empowered him to make at least one pure mahabhavat devotee? Looks like some fault with Krishna then...some fault with Radharani. Some fault with Lord Caitanya and some limitation to the mercy of Lord Nityananda? I'm posing these as rhetorical questions. But it would be good for those supporting the ritvik idea to respond.- thumb_up — 6
- gaurange108 3 years ago@shriamarpuri HA HA SO GREAT! LOVE IT. IT IS LIKE PEOPLE OF FLAT EARTH NON STOP BIG TALKINH HEADS BUT ASK ONE TIME GIVE ME PHOTO OR VIDEO OF ANTARTIC ICE WALLS OR FLAT EARTH DROPPED SILENCE.
- gaurange108 3 years ago@digital1083 WHAT DO YOU WANT; TO SPECULATE OR relaying ON DOCUMENTED ISSUE? PRABHUPAD GOT FROM THE LORD KRISHNA GARLAND, PHYSICALLY DID ANYONE IN 'POST-PRABHUPADA TIME' EVER REPEAT THE SAME? YES OR NO?
Chiru Bhavansikar 3 years agoNothing wrong in accepting Srila Prabhupada as guru but also nothing wrong in serving his disciple gurus whose interest is to serve Prabhupada.- thumb_up — 1
- lenny108 3 years agoThis whole meeting was just a speculation. The actual process would have been to bring the eleven gurus in front of the deities and tell the truth what Prabhupada had told them. Prabhupada: "And it is the system still now in India, if there is some disagreement or quarrel between two parties, so still they would go to the temple — temple is dharma-kṣetra — so that one may not dare to speak lie in front of the Deity. This was still going on. Even one is very low in mentality, still, if he is challenged that "You are talking this false. Now speak before the Deity," he will hesitate, "No." This is India still. You cannot speak lies before the Deity."
- thumb_up — 1
- Human🐰 2 years agoBhakti Siddhant Saraswati Thakur writes in 'True conception of Sri Guru Tattva' as follows:
*"This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today without any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say 'there is no bonafide Guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future,' is an atheistic opinion."*- thumb_up — 4
Matsya Avatara aka Simon Stern 2 years ago@marcodekoning1238 why didn't you give the full quote..where it's written after your half quoting Prabhupada"..Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master"
life is dull 1 year agoDon't talk like a misguided child if you don't know read the letter of 9 July 1977 you will get to know the real philosophy which is living Guru philosophy don't be misguided and don't be a fool don't be in Mayavad
Manav Chaudhary 1 year agoHow people blind with eyes I don't understand Prabhupada clearly said that disciples succession should continue how dare to stop the parampara
Rajesh Kumar 1 year agoWhy srila prabhupad ,why not Srila Prabhupada disciples??.
I think you have a big disease in your mind ...
Directly you can accept Narada muni as a diskha Guru😅😂...murkh foolish person is try to destroy Guru Parampara...
Example: After 10000 years ..a person how to take shelter of Srila Prabhupada...without taking the shelter of his disciples..disciples disciples disciples.......disciples...so many.......
If u want to know your father then go to you mother and ask her..similarly if u want to know the mood of Prabhupada...you should to his senior disciples not to rascal madhupandit...he don't know srila prabhupad mood..never meet him ...they are trying to make a society without Guru Parampara which is not authorized....
Praveena Krishna Dasa 1 year ago@Ys_srikanthliving Gurus only in chill.....how would be their disciples, they will in fuuuuull chill- karnamrta krishna dasa 1 year ago“In the absence of physical presentation of the Spiritual Master, the vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Saraswati Goswami, may appear to be physically not present but still I try to serve His Instruction, I never feel separated from Him” (Srila Prabhupada Lecture, August 22, 1970)
After the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada His instructions remained the same, they didn’t change. Therefore Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa Guru and His ISKCON-specific instructions and the process of Diksa remains the same. A disciple who has had no chance of serving the Spiritual Master, Srila Prabhupada, when He was in His Vapuh, can still follow His Vani, instructions, and fully benefit from this association and advance in devotional service.
The Officiating Acarya process is not a replacement system for the Disciplic Succession, nor is it an initiating system, either. Srila Prabhupada is the Initiator Guru whether there is an Officiating Acarya system in place or not, whether or not the July 9th Letter is implemented or not. Devotees that join ISKCON can only be initiated by Srila Prabhupada because He is the Diksa Guru for ISKCON, period.
In Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.47 we read:
“The disciple and spiritual master are never separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of Vani. Physical presence is called Vapuh. As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master.”
Srila Prabhupada makes it crystal clear that after the disappearance of the Spiritual Master, the disciple follows the instructions of the Spiritual Master. The Spiritual Master left His instructions in the form of Books, verbal instructions, letters, tapes, videos, all these are instructions from the Spiritual Master,Vani.
After the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada His instructions remained the same, they didn’t change. Therefore Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa Guru and His ISKCON-specific instructions and the process of Diksa remains the same. A disciple who has had no chance of serving the Spiritual Master, Srila Prabhupada, when He was in His Vapuh, can still follow His Vani, instructions, and fully benefit from this association and advance in devotional service. - Stories 1 year ago@marcodekoning1238 In many shastras they have mentioned your kind of people should be slapped shall i come and slap you? 😂
- Chiru Bhavansikar 1 year ago@stories5961 don't forever live in the past. Also, there is no proper evidence. Learn to forgive and appreciate current efforts.
- Stories 1 year ago@chirusikarTruth doesn't get old. Guru’s word doesn’t expire. And following him exactly is not backward — it’s the only way forward.
- Stories 1 year ago@chirusikar If even 1% of what Srila Prabhupada said about poisoning is true, and you're defending the guilty under the name of “current efforts”, then you’re not just supporting deviation — you’re complicit in one of the gravest Vaishnav aparadhas possible.
You and your Guru will answer Yamaraj together - Chiru Bhavansikar 1 year ago@stories5961 you continue to live in the past. What Vaishnava behavior have you developed? Forgive, let go and see broader picture. See the impact these both organizations are creating. Internal conflicts will derail iskcon whichever iskcon it is.
durga kolli 1 year ago@joebiden9373Srila Prabhupada is the Viswa guru for entire world. Guru parampara is continuing . Srila Prabhupada could build 108 temples but forgot to propose the next Guru? Is this logical? He is constantly guided by Lord Krishna himself. If he appoints he would have appointed 1 guru. 11 Gurus? Is this in any sampradaya?- durga kolli 1 year ago@Manav_256can you show the last instruction of Srila Prabhupada that he is appointing anyone as Guru?
- thumb_up — 1
- durga kolli 1 year ago@chirusikarthis is the exact feeling Arjuna had before fighting the war. Lord Sri Krishna asked Arjuna to fight for Dharma. If there are deception and faults those needs to be exposed and corrected .
- Chiru Bhavansikar 1 year ago@kollidurga Srila Prabhupada never wanted ISKCON to break up. He wanted his disciples to collaborate. If you are willing to pay the price of forgoing iskcon's impact on society by prioritizing internal misunderstandings, go for it. The decision is yours to make, what you want to make a priority. In this case, neither parties are Duryodhana. Both are approaching Prabhupada's vision differently. Each party is contributing to the society.
- Praveena Krishna Dasa 1 year ago@digital1083 Krishna was present midst the army of Pandavas and Kauravas, didn't he capable to make Kauravas as His devotees.? It's the matter of followers or disciples or receivers duty to get the truth and remain with the truth. And not the capability of source.
- thumb_up — 1
Yash Sankhla 1 year ago@digital1083 it's not Prabhupada fault it's disciple duty that he become self realized soul not only self realized wait for right so his spiritual give him order.. sripad aindra prabhu also self realized soul he never tell i want also become guru.- Yash Sankhla 1 year agoWho said guru parampara stopped.. in the form of ritvik system srila Prabhupada accepting disciple and our sins also
- Hare Krishna 1 year ago@marcodekoning1238is this his final order??? A big nooooo, those who wants to become Guru is really bogus
- Stories 1 year ago@chirusikarWe dont need to learn Vaishnava Behaviours from you and your LSD addict hippie Gurus 😂
Gaurav chahar 1 year agoDear Prabhu, I would like to take initiation from HDG Bhakti Siddhant Sarswati Thakur or why not from lord Chaitanya directly,
Like this if everyone starts taking from anyone then where is the disciplic successions- Stories 1 year ago@gauravchahar3995If at all you have to take initiation from a conditioned soul better come to me I'll initiate you
You guys are so dumb to take initiation from LSD addicts and hippies 
Rādhikā Raman Das 1 year agoOne should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari .” (The Nectar of Instruction, text 5, purport)@marcodekoning1238
SP Sp 12 months agoAs even some Gaudiya Math individual others who don't consider sril Prabhupada to be that authentic in every aspect they believe their guru and Sril BhaktiSidanta Sarswati Thakur to be safest so in that terms Yes than I'm also thinking to take initiation directly from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu or BhaktiSidanta Sarswati Thakur as feel to be safest by considering that sril Prabhupada not even made one pure devotees to continue this process of disciplic succession in Iskcon so and one thing is clear no one is fighting for self ego but the things very big deviation of philosophy fighting so no one should blame each other for self guru or other if that so than it's same to be considered as ritvik behind self business
Vivek Raj 11 months agoRitik is a abramical philosophy, guru shishya pampara never can be stop and guru should be living entities.
Jayseva 4 years agoExcept for rare highly spiritually enlightened souls we, the mortals should follow the common sens applying the injunctions of sastra, in other words first we should come down to some basic reasoning too. It is obviously not our privilege to be diksa disciples of the Sat Guru and the saktyavesa Bhakta Avatara HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada but he is now in his aprakat status accessable to the humble and intelligent as siksa guide or guru. One should accept his mercy in such kindly delivered to us forms of his limitless mercy and be benefited beyond our expectations reading his unedited books, hear his audio records, etc. Following the Upadeshamrita on the other site we should avoid the ecclesiastical, social or customary endorsements in the subject of initiations. In the post 1978 March isKcon all activities became by default severed from the spiritual line due to disobedience and guru avajnor aparadha. The proponents of the rittvik cult are demanding diksha from a non manifested Sat guru due to their inability to fullfil the order of the Acarya to " simply follow" become qualified and eventually act as regular guru when individually ordered by Srila Prabhupada to do so, or adequately become serious students and be blessed by God to have a bona fide Guruji.- amar puri 5 years agoWe learn from Srimad Bhagavatam 5-26-28 ;
TRANSLATION
" A person who in this life bears false witness or lies while transacting business or giving charity is severely punished after death by the agents of Yamarāja. Such a sinful man is taken to the top of a mountain eight hundred miles high and thrown headfirst into the hell known as Avīcimat. This hell has no shelter and is made of strong stone resembling the waves of water. There is no water there, however, and thus it is called Avīcimat [waterless]. Although the sinful man is repeatedly thrown from the mountain and his body broken to tiny pieces, he still does not die but continuously suffers chastisement."
So, by hook or crook, maintain your FALSE Prestige, Position, Adoration, Distinction simply for Profit, and suffer the consequences as explained in the above Sloka. It is your Individual choice. OM TAT SAT.- thumb_up — 5
- Lloyd McKay 4 years agoUnfortunately there has been dishonesty on both sides. I vote ultimately that the system of the parampara go on as it has since time began. That as Srila Prabhupada said-" The disciple of the guru becomes the next guru. Still in Iskcon Srila Prabhupada is the primary Siksha guru founder acharya. Diksha guru responsibility must be taken up by qualified disciples. That really is the final order. Hare Krishna.
- Lloyd McKay 4 years agoI don't know which side you are referring to. Both I would assume as I have seen dishonesty on both sides.
- Manu Das First Person Seva 2 years ago⏩RITVIK SYSTEM OF INITIATION⏪
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https://youtu.be/McB_-SpqZxs?si=X0BKjR0XT_V3-v9C
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https://youtu.be/Dg_-Mc1_jOs?si=X8cR2yP7WVle3YPy
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Raj Panchal 5 years agohttps://youtu.be/kXTW_zkCEw0?t=4328 blasphemer spotted. He's blaspheming Shrila Prabhupada. Listen the full sentence
Bojan Kojic 6 years agothank you for posting this important subject. hare krishna. meeting is not entirely videotaped.- thumb_up — 4
- Bojan Kojic 6 years ago@Archis1488 thank you, now i'm watching it. hare krishna from bosnia
- thumb_up — 1
- Archis 6 years agoBojan Kojic Please join ISKM and set up a temple where you live Prabhu.
- thumb_up — 1
Atharva Sakore 6 years ago@Archis1488 By saying this you are actually disrepecting Srila Prabhupad because ISKM claims no one is qualified to give initiation after prabhupad means you want to say that prabhupad teaching were not powerful that he doesn't have single qualified diciple to give initiation- thumb_up — 4
Ayam ātmā brahma 6 years ago@atharvasakore9626 His teachings are so powerful that no one has to usurp his position.
Aman 6 years ago@ayamatmabrahma9658 his position is still unique as our founder acarya and our shiksha and uddharak guru of ISKCON.- thumb_up — 3
KC Clips 5 years ago@amansingh13346 https://youtu.be/FGyqY4-XQE0?t=10667
No-one is saying there'll be no Pure Devotee after Śrīla Prabhupāda .
- gaurange108 3 years ago@atharvasakore9626
@Digital108 WHAT DO YOU WANT; TO SPECULATE OR relaying ON DOCUMENTED ISSUE? PRABHUPAD GOT FROM THE LORD KRISHNA GARLAND, PHYSICALLY DID ANYONE IN 'POST-PRABHUPADA TIME' EVER REPEAT THE SAME? YES OR NO?
andycookin 6 years agoBoth are possible. Our disciplic succession has many gaps, going all the way back to Krsna 5000 years ago. The problem rests on being able to identify a genuine Pure Devotee.- thumb_up — 5
- Aman 6 years ago@GinnungagapLover Prabhupada would say to u only one word..."rascal!"...
- thumb_up — 1
Atomic 419 5 years ago@amansingh13346 no, the so-called “gurus” that took over after prabhupada’s very suspicious death are the actual rascals.- thumb_up — 5
- Biren R 4 years agoThis is my Narayana-astra for the Ritvik debate.
Ritviks are not able to give answer. Ofcourse they love to play with cherry picked quotes!
If Srila Prabhupada wants the ritvik system to go for eternity, why is there no such proof in his writing? Give me a clear statement!
Why would Srila Prabhupada neglect to mention something as important as this ritvik system in writing?
Why? Why? Why?
Any sane person should accept this fact that there is no such proof!
75-09-02.Omk Letter: Omkara
"Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.”
68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta
"Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program."
From this statement it is abundantly clear that Prabhupada’s mission from the very beginning was to educate his disciples so some of them would become qualified diksa gurus and initiate their own disciples. He wants to transfer the title of Bhaktivedanta and the power to preach and accept disciples to his disciples. He clearly states that “this is my program.” The qualification is there… One must pass the examination on all the books… “Our students must be well versed in all of our books so they are prepared to defeat all opposing parties in the matter of self-realization.”
Considering the statements of Srila Prabhupada quoted above and the hundreds of others along the same lines it is completely bizarre for Krishna Kant to claim: “There is no evidence of Srila Prabhupada issuing specific orders for his disciples to become diksa gurus.” It is the statement of a crazy fellow. - Bonafide spirituality 4 years ago@biren5445 no acharya,guru has given written, specific order to become guru, guru is a direct menifest of Krishna some how or other he will come out please pray.
- Biren R 4 years ago@bullvorIf Srila Prabhupada didn’t clearly and definitely say it, whatever it is, don’t trust it.
If Srila Prabhupada wants the ritvik system to go for eternity, why is there no such proof in his writing? Give me a clear statement!
What would strong evidence look like? Something like this:
“Acting on my behalf, my disciples serving as rttvik gurus shall continue to initiate even after my physical departure. The new disciples initiated shall not be disciples of the rttviks. They shall be my own.”
Have you seen this kind of evidence anywhere? No! - Bull Vore 4 years ago@biren5445 : All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
—
Vrindaban
9 July, 1977
To All G.B.C., and Temple Presidents
Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,
Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as “ritvik–representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:
His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami
His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami
His Holiness Jayapataka Swami
His Holiness Tamala Krsna Gosvami
His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami
His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami
His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami
His Holiness Ramesvara Swami
His Holiness Harikesa Swami
His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari
His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.
Hoping this finds you all well.
Your servant,
Tamala Krsna Gosvami
Approved: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami - Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 July 9th letter plus here they're saying Tamal Krsna would hold to things Srila Prabhupada said
- Biren R 3 years ago@ElFresco214 Didn't Prabhupada want his disciples to become gurus and accept disciples? He wanted this.
So this is the end of the ritvik debate. Now there is no meaning of arguing mindlessly for thousands of years! - Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 no he did not want that, it is very clear that Srila Prabhupada is the last Acharya, he is the mercy of the mercy. Made the path the easiest it can be and delivered it to the whole world. Srila Prabhupada is jagat guru, Spiritual Master of the whole world. The July 9th letter and his will are VERY CLEAR. And let's not forget prabhuji that there are levels of gurus. Diksa is given with the knowledge and reading Srila Prabhupadas books. He said he would always live through his books and instructions, that's how the Bhagavatam starts off
- Biren R 3 years ago@ElFresco214 67-11-02.Mad Letter: Madhusudana
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated 24th October 1967. Kirtanananda was awarded the position of a Sannyasi because he wanted it although I could understand it that he wanted to be a spiritual master himself. Lord Caitanya wanted every one should be a spiritual master provided he follows the order of Lord Caitanya. The Lord’s mission was to defeat the Mayavada philosophy and establish in the philosophy of Krishna consciousness because Krishna is the Supreme Lord the Personality of Godhead. Anyone following the order of Lord Caitanya under the guidance of His bonafide representative, can become a spiritual master and I wish that in my absence all my disciples become the bonafide spiritual master to spread Krishna Consciousness throughout the whole world. I want it but Kirtanananda was too much puffed up and artificially he took up a certificate from me that he has been awarded the order to a Sannyasi, In the spiritual field nobody can become a bonafide spirtual master by dissatisfying his spiritual master. - Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 And did he appoint anyone? He only appointed RITVIKS, it would be silly to think that he wouldn't know that his departure was near, 4 months after July 9 letter he left this planet. It is very clear in that letter that they would be representatives of the Acharya...
What about the present system of appointing guru's by votes, where is that ever mentioned?.... There is siksha guru and diksha guru, anyone who imparts knowledge is a guru, I see the person who introduced me to ISKCON as a guru, but that person directed me to Srila Prabhupadas books, it is only his books that convinced me of everything, why should I need to accept someone else who hasn't benefitted my life in any way. Why should I devote my mind and will to someone I don't know just because Srila Prabhupadas isn't physically present. He would say it's the instruction not his presence. He in his on lifetime only saw his spiritual master twice....- thumb_up — 1
- Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 I understand you are probably "initiated" by one of these guru's and that's why you'll defend them. But it's all logic , our gaudiya history starting from Krsna has only 32 personalities, there are hundreds of years with holes. It is not that is has to forcefully go on. Srila Prabhupada left the easiest path! His books will be the norm these 10,000 years after that it's all left to Kali yuga
- Biren R 3 years ago@ElFresco214 anyone who is qualified can become diksha gurus. There is no question of appointment. He said one thousand times that he wanted his disciples to become gurus. Ritviks are not able to hear that. Pathetic situation!
- Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 he often said his God brothers weren't fit for Acharya, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta instructed Srila Prabhupada. Why aren't his God brothers also Acharya, weren't they all suppose to be guru's as well?
- Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 it's by vote,GBC votes who is diksa guru. Didn't know that was bonified.
- Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 so it's in writing that he left a ritvik system, no where is there in writing that a guru becomes Diksa guru by votes, now that's pathetic. You can accept anyone you want, remember if he is not really connected to the source will he really deliver you?
And can you tell me why I should accept a guru I don't even know when all I have done is read srila Prabhupada books and I believe because of him. But they try to make me forcefully bond and accept someone I don't even know and hasn't benefitted me in any way.... - Biren R 3 years ago@ElFresco214 anyone who is qualified can become diksha gurus.
Prabhupada said that in his absence his disciples can become gurus but they have to be qualified for that position. - Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 ok so tell me Prabhu why weren't his God brothers also Acharya?
And tell me in my case why should I accept someone else as spiritual Diksa guru just because he is alive when I was convinced and feel thankful and relationship with Srila Prabhupada. I was told I have to accept someone because I can't accept Srila Prabhupada even though it is his teachings that I follow.
Now in his will he says that he appoints certain devotees in charge of different temples and properties and it's for life until they die, than another devotee can be appointed but has to be and initiated devotee of Srila Prabhupada. So when all of Srila Prabhupadas initiated devotees die than the whole system dies with them? I really don't see how you can't see that Srila Prabhupada will forever accept devotees, he is jagat guru, spiritual master of the whole world. - Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 EXACTLY THEY HAVE TO BE QUALIFIED!!! AND TAMALA KRSNA HIMSELF SAYS THAT HE AND HIS GOD BROTHERS AREN'T QUALIFIED AND SRILA PRABHUPADA AGREES!!!! What makes you think that after Srila Prabhupada departure that they would be fit? Really the evidence is all there. Best thing you can do is give out Srila Prabhupada books, direct everyone to his books, be an audio book for the people. That's how you really become servant of the servant not by trying to take his position... A pure devotee is such a rare thing, out of millions and millions of souls only one reaches that platform.... I didn't know you can reach it by casting a vote in the GBC
- Biren R 3 years ago@ElFresco214 ISKCON did make mistakes in the past but that doesn't mean Prabhupada wanted the whole new ritvik initiation system. That's pure concoction. He never said anything about it directly. We should only focus on clear instructions and writings .
- Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 and that's why I am asking, there are plenty of letter dating from 73 mentioning the term Ritvik, July 9th letter so best piece of eviden and Srila Prabhupada Will. I ask of you to prove where in any of srila Prabhupada books does it mention that Gurus are appointed by votes and not qualifications. Tamala Krishna himself said he and his God brothers are conditioned souls, why than after Srila Prabhupada departure would they be eligible. It was clear Srila Prabhupada knew even his most senior devotee wasn't qualified for them to be Acharya, in that same conversation Srila Prabhupada says he is waiting for qualified person for him to say you be guru. Since there wasn't really a candidate he made the ritvik system which was put in place and His presence and in July 9th letter says "Henceforward" 4 months later Srila Prabhupada left this planet, presumably He was poisoned by these same devotees, notably Tamala Krishna. Have you heard these recordings from Vrindavan, have you seen the proof that Srila Prabhupada had too much cadium in His system, couldn't have been from atmosphere.... Srila Prabhupada is Diksa, Jagat guru Spiritual Master of the whole world! The last Acharya in the discipular line, it is known His books will be the reference these 10,000 golden years. After that it's all left to Kali. Sri Chaitanya is considered to be Krsnas mercy personified, he made just an easy path to follow. Well Srila Prabhupada is Sri Chaitanyas mercy personified, he is the mercy of there mercy, he made the easiest path of them all, chant 16 rounds and follow 4 principles. There is no more Prabhu, and why can't you answer what I should do than. I have never met any of these bogus gurus, yet I am being told to surrender to one of them because I can't surrender to Prabhupada, even though we know Spiritual Master lives through Vani!!
- gaurange108 3 years ago@jagabandhunayak6882 @Jagabandhu Nayak LISTEN YOU ATTEMPTING POLITE BHAKTI YOGI, STOP SWITCHING ISSUES! YOU JUMP LIKE MONKEY. IT IS NOT ABOUT BEING POLITE OR PRAYING. IT IS ABOUT GRAVE DANGER WHER IF COMMIT MISTAKE YOU WILL TOTALLY GET DIFFERENT OUTCOME. DID YOU EVER TRIED TO CHANGE ONE PARAMETER IN FORMULA? TRY! THAN COME HERE AGAIN WITH POLITING THE MISTAKEN PARAMETER IN FORMULA AND SEE IF IT WILL HELP AGAINST ORIGINAL FORMULA. YOUR TWISTED MIND DOES NOT SEE GRAVE DANGER BUT PERPETUITY OF PRESENT BOGUS SITUATION AND NORMALIZING IT SOMEHOW. NO NORMALIZATION OF WRONG FORMULA, PERIOD WAKEUP!! PLEASE!!!
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@Digital108 WHAT DO YOU WANT; TO SPECULATE OR relaying ON DOCUMENTED ISSUE? PRABHUPAD GOT FROM THE LORD KRISHNA GARLAND, PHYSICALLY DID ANYONE IN 'POST-PRABHUPADA TIME' EVER REPEAT THE SAME? YES OR NO?'' - gaurange108 3 years ago@biren5445 @Jagabandhu Nayak LISTEN YOU ATTEMPTING POLITE BHAKTI YOGI, STOP SWITCHING ISSUES! YOU JUMP LIKE MONKEY. IT IS NOT ABOUT BEING POLITE OR PRAYING. IT IS ABOUT GRAVE DANGER WHER IF COMMIT MISTAKE YOU WILL TOTALLY GET DIFFERENT OUTCOME. DID YOU EVER TRIED TO CHANGE ONE PARAMETER IN FORMULA? TRY! THAN COME HERE AGAIN WITH POLITING THE MISTAKEN PARAMETER IN FORMULA AND SEE IF IT WILL HELP AGAINST ORIGINAL FORMULA. YOUR TWISTED MIND DOES NOT SEE GRAVE DANGER BUT PERPETUITY OF PRESENT BOGUS SITUATION AND NORMALIZING IT SOMEHOW. NO NORMALIZATION OF WRONG FORMULA, PERIOD WAKEUP!! PLEASE!!!
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@Digital108 WHAT DO YOU WANT; TO SPECULATE OR relaying ON DOCUMENTED ISSUE? PRABHUPAD GOT FROM THE LORD KRISHNA GARLAND, PHYSICALLY DID ANYONE IN 'POST-PRABHUPADA TIME' EVER REPEAT THE SAME? YES OR NO?'' - gaurange108 3 years ago@biren5445 BUT PRABHUPAD WROTE DOWN ONLY RITVIK COULD BE REPEATED THREE TIMES. HELLO!?
- Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 He did, you are not reading enough. He left Ritvik system, none of his devotees were fit, the training wasn't complete (may 28 1977)
Now did you know BBTI tried suing Hansadutta in the 90s trying to get access to the BBT and to the rights of Srila Prabhupada writings. They had the audacity to say that Srila Prabhupada was a hired writer by ISKCON and that all the literary work he did is ISKCON property and not Srila Prabhupada, it those are your spiritual leaders, if you think those are the people that will liberate you than go ahead and follow their footsteps, it's been obvious that they have hijacked the movement, because of that lawsuit Krishna Books Inc was created, and were granted a license by the BBT to print Srila Prabhupada ORIGINAL books. - Biren R 3 years ago@ElFresco214 Didn't Prabhupada want his disciples to become gurus and accept disciples? He wanted this.
So this is the end of the ritvik debate. Now there is no meaning of arguing mindlessly for thousands of years! - Aaron Montiel 3 years ago@biren5445 Yes just like a father wants his child to be like him and/or even better, but the proof is there, wanting is not enough there is training and the order must be given (MAY 28 1977) "THE TRAINING ISN'T COMPLETE" "I WILL GIVE THE ORDER NOW YOU BECOME GURU"
(JULY 9 1977) THE RITVIK ORDER IS GIVEN OUT, HOW CAN YOU DEBATE? Why can't you answer about the 90s lawsuit from BBTI? How can you be so blind 🦯? Leader in ISKCON literally said in court the Srila Prabhupada was just a hired writer, the audacity. I understand that you must be initiated by one of these guru's, it's probably why you defend something so blindly....
Our Sampradaya is Bhagavata- Parampara, descends from Krsna himself, only 32 names in whole list steming from Krsna, sooooo many years and only 32 names, our Parampara is not based in just Diksa, why hasn't any of ISKCON BOGUS GURU PUT THEIR NAME AFTER SRILA PRABHUPADA? 
Pancha Tattva 3 years agoThat's a remarkably uninformed statement. Our list of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya vaishnava sampradaya, as given in the Bhagavad-gita As It Is, only includes the prominent acharyas. In between, in some cases, there are spiritual masters who "did not make the list" but who were no less capable of connecting disciples to the disciplic succession. And there were branches of the sampradaya that existed throughout this time, but again, are not listed.
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