In the Name of God -- Hare Krishna Brainwashing Debate with Ted Patrick

I'm Gene Greisman. Welcome to tonight's television special, In the Name of God, Part 3. Tonight's program deals with America's new religions, that is, new religions to the American scene, and efforts that are being made to counteract some of those activities. Our special guests include Mr.

Ted Patrick, who is the best-known practitioner of deprogramming, the individual who gave the name to the practice, and his associate, Sandra Sachs. Representing Hare Krishna, or the Society for Krishna Consciousness, we have as our special guests His Divine Grace, Hrithyananda Daskaswami, and Balavanta. We're going to be using a modified debate format, and for the first segment of tonight's program, we're going to turn to the representatives from the Society for Krishna Consciousness and give them a few moments to express statements about their religion. Then following their statement we'll turn to Mr.

Patrick and Sandra Sachs and we'll be talking about efforts that are being made to counteract certain practices which you disagree with. First of all, let's begin by raising this question. I think that practically, if not all practically all perhaps all the religions on the american scene come to the person on the street and they say you know we've got the answer america's going to the dogs but we've got the answer and so here you come uh with uh supposedly an ancient religion from from the east and you say don't listen to the others we've got it now tell me why we should believe you and not the others Well, I'd like to correct two things which you've just said. First of all, we are not competing with or trying to defeat other religions.

Secondly, what we are presenting is not supposedly a religion of the East. It is already documented both in American courts in India by all Indologists and scholars of America and Europe that what we are presenting is the most genuine form of the Bhagavad Gita as it is. Of course, most Americans don't know what that is. Bhagavad Gita is the Bible of India.

It was spoken 5,000 years ago on a great battlefield called Kurukshetra. That battlefield is still existing in India. And at that time, the Supreme Lord Himself, Krishna, Krishna means God, personally gave succinct instructions to his friend and disciple Arjuna and for the last 5,000 years virtually a billions of people in India have worshipped the Bhagavad Gita as a literal word of God so we are presenting that Bhagavad Gita for the first time in America in a pure form and we are getting very good results but what relevance does this religion which does have its origins or roots in the east you'll accept that fact what relevance does it have to americans religion is one just like the law is one basically the law is one it may have different manifestations according to different time and circum different states may have some slight variation but basically there's a speed limit in every state one state may vary somewhat from another but the basic principle is the same in england keep to the left when you drive in america keep to the right but basically that you have to follow the law of the state is the same so therefore religion is the same the american people have to be serious enough and intelligent enough in this whole issue to actually find out what are the symptoms of spiritual purification and to see who is becoming purified just like for example how do we choose a doctor if we are sick we have certain symptoms of disease we are coughing or sneezing we have fever or stomachache by those symptoms we ascertain that we are sick when we go to a doctor we take medicine and we try to see if we are developing again the symptoms of health if our strength is returning our appetite our enthusiasm and so on and so forth if our fever is going down so in the same way when as you've said america is going to the dogs practically that means that our material fever is rising we are becoming more and more addicted to these material things rather than becoming addicted to god now So if our process is bona fide, and again, any bona fide process is acceptable, ours or another one.

But if our process is bona fide, that material fever has to come down. And if it doesn't come down, if in spite of our religious fervor, we remain addicted to material gratification, our process is not bona fide. And not only our material fever should come down, but our attachment to God should be increasing, our love for God. You said you were having very good results.

Where are you getting your members from, mainly? We are not looking for cheap membership. We are actually trying to present something serious to the American people, and we request them to try to understand what are the real principles of religion. In other words, this cannot be simply confined to a particular sociological group or analyzed in that way.

Whoever joined in the 60s, that's another thing. but the real point is that the American people have to seriously try to understand what the principles of religion are and what the symptoms are of spiritual advancement just like we choose a doctor, we choose a lawyer we choose a real estate broker by the practical results so it's not a question of a sectarian team spirit my team and your team, my religion and your religion that's irrelevant I'm Christian, you're Hindu or Muslim, Jewish or this or that that is not actually spiritual, that's material So we have to actually see how our material fever is coming down and how our understanding of God is increasing. I think that you would agree, maybe you won't, that young people often tend to be, what shall we say, gullible? More gullible than perhaps people who've been around a bit, and you're simply playing on, at least some people would say.

You are also playing because in the material universities, you are dragging these young people into the universities with threat of economic pressure. If they don't go to the university, they'll be practically economically excommunicated. And once they get in the university, you, again, excuse me, not you personally, I was speaking rhetorically, but the material society is shoving into their brain so many ideas, there is no God, everything is created by chemicals. For example, I was recently at Vanderbilt University and I saw a compulsory textbook, a compulsory textbook in a psychology course, which 15 years ago would have been considered the worst pornography available in america this is a compulsory textbook for 17 18 year old people so i think that it is it's obvious that a young person is the most susceptible to education that's why people go to school when they're young and i think that it's actually the material society both in america and all around the world which is misleading and cheating these gullible young people and dragging them down into a fruitless and frustrating life based on material sense gratification and giving them no understanding of God and no understanding of the actual purpose of life.

Okay, now grant that, that we do take this gullible young person into a school and we give that, let's say that person an engineering degree, and once they get that engineering degree from a bona fide school and do their work, they go out and get a job and they can have a successful life, successful i.e. they can earn a good living and can provide for themselves for the rest of their life. What can you do? Just a minute, I would like to question that assumption as to what is successful, because this is exactly the main principle of our movement. First of all, that simply to maintain our bodies and neglect the soul is actually not the standard of a successful life.

I mean, the bodies are automatically being maintained by the laws of nature or by the grace of God. Even the animals are getting their food and so forth. So the food and so forth is coming anyway, but what about the soul that's within the body? If we live our lives and we have a nice home, we have a nice car, we have all the symptoms of social or economic success, at the end of life we have not actually revived our relationship with God, but what is the use of such a life?

We are not proposing that people not work, that they not become efficient or productive in material things. Obviously, any society requires intellectual or educational institutions. It requires administrative and political institutions, commercial institutions, as well as labor institutions, and we know that. In fact, these things are mentioned in the Vedas.

But what we are saying is that along with the material occupational side of life, there must be a systematic program to teach people how to love God. And if that program is not there, then people without God will simply become like animals and among animals there will always be conflict, there will always be violence, there will always be frustration. I was just going to say that we've drawn our first spark of the evening and it probably won't be the last and at this point i think we'll turn to mr patrick and i'd like to ask you how you got into what's called deprogramming well uh i got into deep programming through my own son he was 14 years old now if someone had told me 10 years ago that this could have happened in my family i would say i would call him a lie but it happened to the very one i I would say it would be the last one it would happen to.

All-out door boy, nothing keeping him in the house. And he was psychologically kidnapped by a cult. And they only had him for four hours. But after that four hours, it was somebody I didn't even know.

When he walked in the door, I thought he was on drugs. And he told me what happened. and he talked to some people on the street. They asked him, did he believe in God? Did he have Christ in his heart?

Did he know Christ died on the cross for his sins? And he talked to them for about four hours, didn't know he was Hook. And after talking to them, he was lucky they didn't take him away. But he made it back to the hotel, and we had been everywhere looking for him.

And when he came in, the first thing I noticed was his eyes, just like he was howled for drugs. And that was the first thing I thought about. And he told me his story, what happened. Didn't anyone believe what he was saying.

It was unbelievable, unbelievable. I didn't believe him. Didn't anyone in the room believe him. I didn't know I even had a problem for about two weeks when a lady came into my office and turned in a complaint that her son was last seen the same day they got my son.

And when she told me her story, what happened to her son, they got him. And he disappeared from the face of the earth. For five days she didn't know whether or not he was living or dead. And no one would help her.

She called the police. The police said, how old is your son? 19. He's not a missing person.

He's a runaway. Everybody gave her that story. And then when she finally got the telephone call, Mom, I found God. I'm not coming home anymore.

You all is of the devil, and the world is going to end within a year to seven years, and if you're not in this family, you're going to burn in hell. And after talking to her, I realized what happened to my son, what was wrong with my son, and I started an investigation into this matter. And I went into everything, interviewing people on tapes, witches, warlocks, you name it. I even went to New Orleans.

Somebody that was 100-something years old that my mother kept me to when I was a child for my speech impediment, see. And this lady was still living, which she was supposed to have been a healer and a prophet and all of this, be able to heal people. And I even went and talked to her. And I still wasn't satisfied.

It was still unbelievable. I had to go in to see for myself. And I went in to stay a week. I stayed three days and four nights.

I mean, three nights and four nights and three days. And if I had stayed in a few more hours, I would never have left. I was hooked. And I was so confused for the next six days, I left home one day at 7.30 in the morning, going to the office.

I ended up 70 miles away, didn't know how I got there. I didn't even know where I were or how to get home. And this is how powerful this technique is, a mind control. You think that these groups have techniques of mind control that you feel are dangerous.

Yes. Hare Krishna is one of the main ones. And they use the same technique. It's no different from Guyana.

Jim Jones is no different from Hitler. It's no different from any group in the world that uses this mind control. Now, I've jotted down a few notes. I'm very sympathetic to the experience which Mr.

Patrick had. I will not disagree with him that there are many people at the present time in the Western world who are exploiting people in the name of religion. I don't disagree with him. I'm very sorry if he was a victim of some bad experience, but that was not our group.

But you're looking at a mindless robot. For an example, the young man over there right now, he's just sitting over there chanting Hare Krishna, which is self-hypnosis. And he got his hand in the bee bag. And he just, ever since he's been here, he's been chanting Hare Krishna.

Now, this is his life's blood. He got to chant. And because if he doesn't chant or get away from the influence, he'll start thinking. and this is reason he said no to chen because this prevent him from thinking see the only way you can control a person mind you got to destroy the person free will and their ability to think and then you got to make it impossible for this person to think throughout the rest of their life or other than what the leader tell them to do and that's where it turns into auto suggestion which means self-hypnosis. In Hare Krishna's case, it's chanting.

They chant almost 24 hours a day. We're chanting names of God, and that's recommended in every scripture in the world, that God's name should always be chanted. I believe in the Christian scripture, Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount said, use not meaningless repetition. The name of God is not meaningless.

In the Lord's Prayer, it clearly states, Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. The name of God is holy. Meaningless repetition would mean chanting something which is not God's name. Just like, for example, so many bogus people have come from India.

They're selling mantras. They're simply exploiting people, teaching them to chant so many meaningless words. But we're teaching people to chant God's names. So, pick up on that point, selling mantras.

Now, you do use mantras, do you not? Oh, yes. Because the word mantra is a combination of two words. But you don't sell them.

Oh, of course not. Everyone knows Hare Krishna. All right, Chris, this is the mantra for you. Man in Sanskrit means mind, and tral means to deliver.

So mantra is used to deliver the mind. I got an NBC documentary that was taken by NBC. We treat our dogs better than they treat the babies. Anybody that have a dog, they feed them good food, dog food, and they feed them in a nice container, a plate that was made for the dog.

So I know I do. And you take care of this dog. But in this, in Krishna's case, as you look at this film, you can't help from shedding tears where these babies have to get up at 2 o'clock in the morning, take a cold shower, and then start and chant for so many hours, and they eat off of the floor from a wax paper. If someone is simply going to come here, I mean, Mr.

Patrick, his own activities are quite reprehensible, he spends half his time in jail, and I don't want to go into his personal character about how his violence, I know for a fact, you know, he uses many reprehensible means, illegal means, violent means, I don't want to talk about that because I think the other groups are going to talk about it, as far as I know, I don't want to waste my time with that. As far as our children are concerned, they were recently tested in Los Angeles, and at the age of, let's say, between six and eight, their reading skill, reading with comprehension, and also writing is about two or three years ahead of the public schools. they do not get up at two o'clock in the morning they do live very simple lives the nbc documentary was false propaganda uh anyone who believes everything he sees on tv or in the news or reads in the newspaper is a first class fool but i'm saying anyone can come and visit our schools our children are very happy they're very enthusiastic i just saw one of our schools today here in atlanta the children are every morning and evening dancing and singing they're ahead of the normal children as far as their intellectual skills.

Substantive question. How soon, how long do you leave the children in your schools? Do you ever let them go to public school? But why should they go to public schools?

The answer is no. Of course not. Because in public schools they simply learn how to take drugs, how to engage in illicit sex, how to accept an atheistic conception of the creation of the world. Why should we send our children to the slaughterhouse or public schools.

And again, I think that if I may at this time, I would like to attempt to bring this discussion to the real point. And that is that philosophically we have to understand what we are and what is the purpose of life. That has to be touched upon. According to Bhagavad Gita, which we are presenting, we are not material bodies.

This material body is simply an outward dress. It is like a machine. It has been anatomically and biologically analyzed as such and within this material body there is an eternal soul the proof given by krishna and bhagavad-gita that we are eternal and that we are passing through different bodies is that all of us have experienced that we have passed through even in this life many stages of reincarnation for example all of us had babies bodies child body adolescent body adult body it is a scientific fact that within seven years time the cells within this body changed our fingers our fingernails our hair and skin and so on and so on this way in seven years time there is a replacement of the elements of the body that means the body we have now is not the body we had 10 years ago or 15 years ago still we are the same person so this is a practical proof that although the material body is changing i'm the same person just like for example if you have a child you still recognize him as his child as a child either with a baby's body or with an adult body unless we establish at least what you know what we are and what god is then this discussion is more or less absurd to talk about what you know what's good what's bad what's mind control what's not mind control unless we even establish what the purpose of life is what we're trying to get to what we are as persons then actually this discussion there are so many thousands of television programs and the and i'm not sure we can ever agree on that your statement but then but then let mr Patrick present a better idea of what the soul is than what we're presenting let's get to the real point all right uh i'm my soul or first my soul concern is the breath i breathe but uh what i'm concerned about here's a group they're bringing over a half a billion dollars a year ripping people off this money goes to a bunch of con artists no they are crooks i mean i like to make this public challenge, you know, that I am one of the leaders, one of the big con men, one of the big crooks, and I defy anyone to demonstrate through any means that I'm exploiting or taking things from my own sense gratification or that he is or any of our leaders are.

I mean, he's making statements about my personal life. Personally, all of my possessions I carry in one suitcase. I don't own a car. I don't own a house.

I don't own a radio. I don't own a television set. I don't even have a bank account in my name. And I'm one of the big leaders of our movement so the point is i come from a wealthy family i i had a scholarship to one of the most prestigious universities in america i was an honor student there i had an all opportunity to become very wealthy without entering this movement i i have not a penny in my own name and i and i would like some specific otherwise i i call upon you mr greisman as a phd as a as a very respectable person the chairman of the sociology department of auburn to please keep this program on a professional level.

If Mr. Patrick wants to say that I'm a con man and a crook, let him introduce data, specific information about me personally. I want to come to Sandra Sachs and ask you why it is that you got involved in the kind of work that you are now in. Tell tell your story if you would.

My son, I have a son who is now 22 years old, living once again a very productive life. There were a few things before I go into that that really bothered me that the gentlemen were talking about. I can't speak in the same rhetoric that they can, but I can certainly speak as a mother and someone who's seen a lot of suffering from this Krishna organization. Number one uh in their all their talk about their philosophy everything they say is negative they say this body is not good the world is no good nothing is good i mean what are we here on earth for except to to uh have the happiest best life we can and their philosophy is completely against that they live a lifetime of dying and that's what they teach and that's what they preach and it is all very extremely negative.

It's not all negative. But according to the Bhagavad Gita, which is the oldest scripture in the world, the sign of an educated man is that he can distinguish between that which is temporary and that which is eternal. So, in Krishna consciousness, we frankly say that because this material body is temporary, it cannot give us ultimate happiness. But we don't leave it at that.

It's not an impersonal, it's not a Buddhist, it's not a voidistic organization. We say there is an ocean of pleasure, there is an ocean of happiness, but that comes from the soul and not from this body. There is actually something very substantial to life which goes beyond just the basic living condition in this particular life. We're not negative, although we see that this life has serious problems.

We have to die, we have to grow old, we have to grow diseased. So this is not our natural ultimate life. There's a higher standard of life which exists on a spiritual platform with God. Actually, when this life is not all in all, when this life is finished, when it has the opportunity, if he actually, you know, applies himself in this lifetime to understand God, to actually return to the spiritual world.

As far as the children are concerned in the schools, they said that these children tested out to be far ahead of the other children, but in what? Because the only thing that they are allowed to learn is Krishna. In the Vedic literatures, when we say the Vedas, we're talking about the most vast body of knowledge in the history of the world, comprising many hundreds and thousands of books, dealing with everything from rocket science, there's one Vedic scripture called Vimana Shastra, how to build an airplane that was used by the Germans, there are spiritual books, there are books about agriculture, there are books about military science, there's history, there's art, there's poetry, Sanskrit language is accepted. Sanskrit is a medium of all Vedic literature and it is accepted universally by linguists as the most scientific and the most sophisticated language in the world so when we say that in conclusion when we say our children are only studying about Krishna I don't think that's such a limiting concept thank you and I even restrained myself this time from interrupting I had two or three very good questions but I did not interrupt well I wanted to give you a chance to develop your ideas and so I'm going to turn to Ted and give you a chance to respond or to introduce some new material that you may wish.

And I might say to our viewers that we're going to start taking phone calls if you'd like to ask a question about any of the topics that are being discussed. Now we'll make a comment. We'll welcome your phone call. They are a very good example of what I'm speaking about.

What you're looking at now, just like he said, are very brilliant men. But they have reduced an adult down to a mindless robot, to a child, where they can't even speak beyond those books. If you talk anything other than the Baba Bhagita, they cannot respond to it. Please notice that this man does not give any data, does not give any statistics or evidence.

He's simply throwing out wild charges and preventing us from actually talking about God. All right, we're going to take our first phone call, line three, you're on the air. can you hear me yes thank you very much i have the part about three questions the first is i don't know if we can take three we might take one all right oh real well they're sort of connected the first what is done with the money they actually solicit from persons and are any of the harry krishna gainfully employed other than on the street i don't know if they're gainfully and number three they're like how do they live commune hotels reservations how do they live All right. I think that we can, those are, could be briefly answered. All right.

Specifically, it goes to distribute religious scriptures, such as Bhagavad Gita, Srimad Bhagavatam. We distribute literally millions of copies of literature every year. At least 50% of our income goes to the distribution of literature that can be documented. Secondly, the rest of the money goes principally for the construction of places of worship, temples, houses of worship.

And this costs money, but the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, which is one of the great architectural achievements of the world, is a religious structure costing hundreds of years of labor, of thousands and thousands of men. So this is the proper use of human labor. It should be used for the glorification of God. So as far as our members and their activities, they are engaged in distributing these literatures on the streets.

I mean, that activity is certainly as laudable as the activity of any encyclopedia salesman, say, or any book salesman. These books have been recognized and appreciated by scholars and universities all over the country, all over the world. The second question, what percentage of your people are gainfully employed? I know the answer to that question.

This is gainfully. First of all, that implies that the persons who are distributing these literatures are not gainfully employed. I don't think that the lack of God consciousness in the world is a wonderful thing. I don't think anyone in America, 93% of the people in America believe in God.

That was a recent Gallup poll. But where is God to be found in our modern life? So I don't think it is at all ungainful that they are distributing religious principles to the mass of people. That's the first point.

Okay, the question, you said that it could be documented, the amount of money that was spent thus and so. I know many religious groups will not make public exactly how their money is spent. If anyone wants to write to us, I'll gladly send them. You will give a CPA-certified account of how your money is spent.

If they will write to us, we will send. But the fact is, I mean, even, of course, how many people actually write, but I can say right now that we're distributing millions of these books every year. You can see the cost of these books, the value of them. I mean, they've been appreciated, as I said before, they're in every college library in the United States.

Okay. So these are going to the people. So even from a historical or a sociological point of view, it's a great value. Say one little point about this money thing.

Okay, then we're going to take the phone call. Yes. I'm sorry to butt in here. but then why, if that's what they're doing, why do they lie to the public when they're distributing the books? I say they're a Christian consciousness or something like this.

They'll pin a flower on you at the airport, they'll ask for a donation, and they'll say all kinds of things as to why they're collecting money. It says the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. That's right. I will say for your group that you do say Krishna consciousness on your books.

They say Krishna consciousness on the books, but when they come out in the airport... No, we wear a name tag in the airport. It says who we are. Okay, I'm going to take another phone call.

Yes, you're on the air. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. All right.

I'd like to commend Mr. Patrick on his excellent work, and that it is proven by psychiatry, sleep, and food, and constant chanting that the mind snaps. I dare them to sit alone with Mr. Patrick.

That's quite a challenge. I don't know if we'll take that latter point, but I wonder if you would comment on the book Snapping. Yes, Snapping is one of the best books you can read because it goes into the science of this movement, of the cult movement, mind control, and what takes place in the person's mind when the mind snaps from consciousness to an unconscious state of mind. I think that it's very unfortunate it that in America people are, many people do not have enough common sense to actually study things on their own merit.

We are not a cult. I've already explained and this can be documented very easily. Any religious scholar in America will agree to it. They already have agreed to it in signed statements that we are presenting the oldest religion in the world.

And therefore to say that it's simply snapping or thising or thating and is really quite foolish the point is that uh there's a food deprivation sleep deprivation i mean all these things are very unfortunate most lamentable and without any basis or real intelligence anyone can come to our centers you're not going to find a bunch of skinny korean war victims so i mean why don't we get to something serious why don't we have a program and actually talk about god talk about things which can be of use to america i don't know why these envious people are so much against us there are many cults have already admitted it there are many groups they are not based in bona fide scriptures they are actually exploiting people but why should we why should we be lumped in in this way uh why don't we talk about something serious and which can actually help people you're on the air can you hear me yes i can um i would like to know go right ahead i can hear you yes i can hear you i would like to know why is it that christian never refer to christian never refer to jesus christ son of god for to god now you can't separate god from his son all right thank you very much we're going we're actually going to have to take a station break in just a moment but i think that you could respond briefly to your attitude toward christ and christianity how can you separate the the god the father from the son so that both are one the son is the son the father is the father but they're one in harmony Sometimes God comes Himself to give His eternal, transcendental message, and sometimes He sends His sons or His representatives. The message is the same, however.

Also, I'd like to make one point about the charge of our being mindless, robots, unconscious. We're the ones who want to discuss philosophy. We're the ones who want to discuss history, the significance of social structures, and the purpose of life, and the meaning of life. This is hardly the discussion of mindless robots.

However, on the other hand, our this evening's adversaries, they want to simply put forth baseless innuendos and charges without any substantiation. They want to simply make empty criticisms of us without any philosophical merit. So, I mean, I think if we actually were mindless robots, and we would want to be on their platform rather than be on the platform of intelligent, rational discussion, which is what we've come here for. Unfortunately, we're having a hard time acquiring it.

As you can see, we are dealing with vital, basic issues about which there are fundamental disagreements.