Larry King Live interviews Kirtanananda Swami Bhaktipada on Murder and Kidnapping

...of God or ruthless religious godfather. An outlaw swami pleads innocent in a gruesome murder. Now, here's Larry King. Good evening, back in Washington, another edition of Larry King Live.

Is he an unconventional religious leader or a ruthless cult dictator? Swami Bhaktipad is in the eye of a storm in a case involving murder, kidnapping, and mail fraud. Son of a Baptist minister, Bhaktipad founded a Hare Krishna community in the hills of West Virginia 21 years ago. In a swirl of controversy, the Swami was kicked out of the Krishna movement three years ago.

Bhaktapad, previously known as Keith Hamm, has been named in five counts of racketeering charges, including conspiracy to commit murder against Stephen Bryant, who had waged a one-man campaign against him. We welcome back to Larry King Live, Swami Bhaktapad, who also has a book out called How to Say No to Drugs. This book is independently published, and if you want information on obtaining it, Write to us Larry King live in Washington, and we'll get the book and the information to you and to the swami I thank you very much for coming. He's the swami of the new verbinden temple in West, Virginia Why were you thrown out of the Hare Krishnas?

That's a good question I'm just working. I think It has to do with the fact that My views became a little too liberal for them like Like, I refuse to think that we're the only ones going to the happy land. That all we... This is how Christians believe they're the only ones who go.

Right. And this is an age of religious pluralism. That anyone who truly follows the path of love of God, whether we call God by the name of Allah or Buddha or Krishna or Christ, the good father understands, no matter what name his child is calling, Since Hare Krishna believes that it's only the Hare Krishnas, why didn't you leave or why join the sect yourself? Well, I tried to work within the framework of the organization, but things just didn't work out, I think.

So you're no longer a Hare Krishna? Well, I'm Hare Krishna in the sense that we chant the Hare Krishna mantra. We use the name of Krishna, which in Sanskrit means all-attractive. that's a very very good description of godhead but you're not part of any any organized religion beyond this temple in west virginia no that is an in and of itself temple we are lovers of god and we are forming there what is called the city of god it is for devotees of any tradition how swami did someone feeling the love you feel get involved in things like accused racketeering conspiracy, murder for hire, mail fraud. It reminds me of something the head of the KGB said, give me a man, I'll give you a charge.

You can charge a man with anything. But why you? Because there is an eternal conflict in this material world between the godly and the ungodly, the good and the bad. Remember in the Garden of Eden, there was a tree called the Tree of knowledge of good and evil this world is a world of duality and where there is duality there is conflict and the bad are after you well i don't wish to denote people as bad now who's after you there is a force of of badness or evil which makes which controls people just as there is a force of goodness which controls people and we in this world have the choice which will be controlled by which people are being controlled by this force to attack you who's after you well all i know is when i was in india notice this indictment came down when i was out of the country this was when two weeks ago two weeks ago and they didn't want me to come back that's why they announced the indictment when i was out and in fact they told my lawyer get a hold of him tell him if he doesn't come back and if they turn over the property to ishkan we'll drop the charges who's ishkan ishkan is the old line harry krishna organization so these charges now why is the government of west virginia against you pardon the state of west virginia has filed these charges against you no this is a federal federal conspiracy to murder on a federal basis suppose the gentleman that you're accused of attempting to murder that's very strange because this man was murdered during a period that i was almost totally incapacitated if you recall in the fall of 85 i was attacked and beaten over the head with a steel pole and i was in a coma for 21 days and i was recuperating for a number of months after that and that's when i was that's when Stephen Bryant was killed.

Now, Stephen Bryant was a critic of the church and of you. Yes. Who was he? He was a vocal critic.

Yes. You didn't like him. You didn't like what he said. I didn't care because no one was listening to what he said.

He had already been proved, uh, he had already proved himself to be, uh, because he came back to West Virginia and he was arrested carrying a .45. Nobody was listening to this guy. Did you ever say to anyone, whether before you were infirm or not, that you would like to see him dead? I never said that.

What then is... I've never said that about anyone. How then did they get an indictment alleging you to conspire to commit murder? You'll have to ask them.

What does the indictment say? The indictment says you did what? That you told people to murder him? That you were involved?

The indictment can't just say you had a conspiracy to commit murder. It has to spell out how you did it. Well, the indictment really doesn't spell out anything. It's a strange indictment.

It does not spell out any way that you were participating in a conspiracy to kill this gentleman. Not that I recall. It just says you're indicted for conspiracy to kill. Frankly, I never read it.

I don't have it in front of me. What's the mail fraud contend? You can't just write the word mail fraud. You've got to say what you did.

Well, this has to do with collecting money. they say that that we used the mails and we collected money to defraud on purpose i'm trying to understand your position i'm trying i came here with the understanding that we're not going to discuss these cases well how could we not because we we can't discuss it just just like the u.s attorney refuses to discuss it until it's heard in the court of law i have full faith in the court of law you know i was indicted two years ago on an arson case and i heard was heard by the court the court said not guilty and i i'm convinced that when the court hears me again they'll say not guilty but if you're getting a bad rap here and and the kind of universe of the country is looking at you getting this bad rap have read about you getting the bad rap certainly this is a nice forum nobody's here i don't have the indictment in front of me To kind of clear things up. I mean, you're not going to be cross-examined.

It will be cleared up in the court of law, and that we have full faith in. Why do you think black clouds follow you around? I think they follow anyone who's pursuing the truth around. Why was Jesus Christ harassed?

Why was Socrates harassed? Are you putting yourself in this league? I'm not in the same league, but if even these great men who are far, far above me were harassed, then what could be said about me? Okay, and why is society out to get you?

I want to go beyond where, so we don't think that it's paranoia. Why don't you say society is out? If you've got federal authorities, that's the Justice Department. If you take that offer that was made to me, just stay out of the country, turn the property over to ISHCON, First of all, what's the government got to do choosing between two different religious organizations as to who would have the property?

And that offer was definitely made. That offer was made. By a representative of the United States Justice Department. That's correct.

We'll be right back. No, I want to get it straight. It was not made or was made? That was made.

Our guest is Swami Bhaktapada. Bhaktapada, he is the Swami of the new Vrindaban Temple in West Virginia. Your phone calls will be included. This is Larry King Live in Washington. jane seymour is going to be with us monday night don't go away gang lie is brought to you by jeep there's only one jeep recently four-wheeled off-road magazine took this i'm not guilty i'm gonna plead that tomorrow right of course so the arraignment is tomorrow that's correct okay they're charging lots of things in this i know you don't want to discuss things germane to the trial that's correct but why why would a justice department of the united states frankly I mean, this begs logic a little here.

So let's forget whatever. Why would the Justice Department pick on a... Why would they offer to drop the case if I stayed out of the country and gave the property to Iskahn? You answer that one.

I have no idea. Why do you think the Justice Department would... This is in a general tone. There must have been someone who has a political motive in this way.

Is this a West Virginia official? Perhaps. Perhaps people in the local department saw a political advantage. that by getting rid of the swami, they could claim political diplomacy. You are therefore controversial in the community?

Well, in the Bible Belt, any foreign religion is not exactly welcome. Why bring a religion that is foreign, eastern, and a little different to West Virginia? I mean, why not outside of San Francisco? Because that's where God sent me 20 years ago.

You've got a calling to go there. That's correct. Does the other Swami, the Hare Krishna Swami, who claims he has the property, say he got a calling too? We have conflicting callings.

I don't mean that humorously. I don't know who that Swami is. Do people in West Virginia want you to leave? Some people do and a lot of people don't.

A lot of people like us very much. So why is it to the political advantage of someone to get you out? Because there are a lot of people in West Virginia who are of that mentality. that's a little bigoted. This isn't exactly West Virginia.

You see, if you're not born in West Virginia, you're a foreigner. Whether you're from Detroit or anywhere. Right. And they favor the other Swami over you?

I don't know of any other Swami. Oh, well, the gentleman you mentioned. You see, all of the information, all of the testimony that they've amassed are from members of ISHKCON who've already been proved guilty either of fraud or of murder. The other side.

The other side. All of their witnesses are convicted felons and such. Really? Really.

And every person who's going to testify against you is tainted? That's correct. That would seem to hurt the prosecution. And they've all gotten reduced sentences for giving information.

Oh, for cooperating. That's correct. They shall come out at the trial, of course. Of course.

How big a following do you have? How many of your followers are there? In our community, we have about 400 residents, and we have a few thousand members who live all over the country and support our community. And they contribute to you, such as like the publication of this book, You're Very Anti-Drugs, right?

Yes. Let's go to some calls. Champaign, Illinois, for Swami Bhaktipad. Hello.

Hi. I love your book. Thank you. We are opposed to all forms of intoxication, including drugs, including alcohol, including tobacco, or even coffee and tea.

We don't even take coffee or tea. All stimulants. All stimulants. What was that book about, this case?

Well, that book is also another propaganda piece, which was, that man wrote the book without ever visiting our community. We discussed this the last time. He never even talked to the members of our community. There are 400 people who live in our community.

About 200 of them have been there more than 10 years. He never interviewed one of them. This was the book alleging you were a cult. Right.

We'll be right back with Swami Bhakti Bhad, more of your phone calls. This is Larry King Live in Washington. Don't go away. This is the fairest faucet of them all.

Starting. We're having a difficult time with the phone calls. They tell me the audio portion of the audio board. I'll have a funeral for the audio board in about two minutes.

Stay tuned for the audio board funeral. Our guest is Swami Bhaktipad. I've never heard of this, but it's always something new. After 33 years, a dead audio board.

Swami Bhaktipad is Swami of the new Vrindavan. Can you explain what that means, the Vrindavan temple? It means forest of tulsi trees. It's the place in India where Lord Krishna appeared 5,000 years ago.

What took you to this region? Well, in 1966, I was living in New York City, and a friend of mine met Swami Prabhupada, the founder of this movement, on the street. We had both been to India the year before, and we were interested to meet the man and talk to him. Prabhupada convinced me very definitely by his life and by his words that he was a genuine spiritual master and could show me the way to love god and this was a logical conviction not some sort of a spiritual awakening one day you went to sleep with baptists and woke up the next morning this happened over a period of a year okay what led you though to a higher calling to want to be a swami to want to lead flock he instilled that desire in me by his example by convincing me that life's real purpose is to serve god and there is no higher service to a father than to re-establish the relationship of his lost son and when you say you got a calling to west virginia could you explain to the layman calling occurs yes i i picked up a copy of the san francisco oracle one copy in my whole life and in that one copy there was one ad that the man put in there one time and it was for a piece of land in west virginia which he said he wanted to give to make a religious community and i saw that and i said look i want to go and see this and when i saw the land i loved it and i thought this would be a great place and who was the man his name is richard rhodes and is he a follower of the community no he's not did he give you the land no he sold it to us so you raise money to buy this that's good and then do your followers are they supposed to come and live on the land and is that is that one of the purposes they don't have to come and live they're welcome to right but they don't have to you can be a follower anywhere simply by dedicating your life to god and working for god's service and how are you supported the same way any church is supported by the free will offerings of our members but all the people who live there 400 live there right that's correct how do they like their food their livelihood do they work do they go and work yes some do many of them make things there that are sold and we support ourselves we have a we have one of the largest dairies in west virginia we have about three or four hundred cows now when someone started to complain about you uh this began in the what early 80s or before that well and was brian an early complainer who how did this start for instance back in the early 70s some of our neighbors complained and they tried to sue us and get us out of there saying you were what an annoyance yeah they said we were an annoyance that we trespassed on their land or such some such things and that also went to court and was found not to be true so in other words thus far nothing's been proven ever against ever charges are continuously made against you including as one as strong this is the third time three strikes they're out okay somebody swami doesn't like you somebody somebody up there likes us that's what i'm concerned about i'm not concerned about whether they like us down here that'll pass this whole world passes it's a temporary world in fact this kind of reminds me the first little booklet that our spiritual master Prabhupada wrote in this country was a little booklet called who is crazy they say we're crazy we think they're crazy now who's right what is the definition of sanity the word sane comes from the french word sanus which means healthy now one is healthy when he perceives things as they are when he lives in a fantasy world or his hallucinatory world is insane so the materialist is living his life on the premise that i'm this body well we say you're not this body and we can prove it is that what the hari krishna say too sure right you're still a hari krishna in soul aren't you in philosophy yes even though the organized element of the church why are they so mad at you just because you don't believe there's only one master as i say it see it they were threatened by certain people and they became intimidated and they said all right we'll get rid of him and in exchange they were going to get the property this whole thing's a scam for property this is a very valuable piece you'll notice that in the indictment about 40 pages have to do with all the charges.

And about 70 pages have to do with what property is going to be seized. It's about property. This is valuable property? Yes.

One of the things that makes it valuable is there's coal underneath it. And the coal company can't mine there as long as we're there. As long as we're building a big temple there, they can't mine there. But if you lose, the other Harry Krishna sect gets it.

So the Justice Department doesn't get it. The state of West Virginia doesn't get No, but some politicians make their advantage. Therefore, there are several motives. Principally, it's a political motive.

Political hay. And when this man lost the first round a couple of years ago, he became vindictive. I've got to get this swami. And that's what this is?

That's what it is. A vendetta. You can say now that you're... Well, you said it.

At any rate, it'll be decided in the court, and I have every faith that it'll be decided honorably, correctly, and I have faith in it. And you can say here, since you're going to plead not guilty tomorrow, you had nothing to do with attempting to murder anyone. No one. I have everything to do with trying to give everyone life, life eternal.

Did you love the gentleman in question, Mr. Bryan? I love everyone. Him too.

Because he's part and parcel of God. We're all that. We all are. We're going to pause.

We understand our phones may be okay now. We're going to pause, come back, and take some more calls for Swami Bhaktapada, then more. This is Larry King Live in Washington. We're with you every night, Monday through Friday at 9 Eastern.

By the way, at 1 a.m. Pacific time, repeated every night, we call it Larry King Overnight Novel. We'll be back with some calls, hopefully, after this. Larry King Live continues, followed by evening news, next on CNN.

Our guest is Swami Bhaktipad of the new Vrindavan Temple in West Virginia. With us on the phone, hopefully we can connect through, we've had some phone problems, is Rabindra Sarupa, who is chairman of the North American Governing Body of the Commission of ISKCON. Are you there, Rabindra? Yeah, I am.

Can you hear me? I hear you fine. Okay, great. Do you want to tell us why the Swami was expelled?

Do you have a question for the Swami? Anything you want to say? Well, I just wanted to say to you, I want to thank you very much for pointing out very clearly that we had expelled a time ago, three years ago. Sometime it's been neglected by the press, and a lot of innocent devotees suffered some opprobrium.

I'm sure you're saying the Hare Krishna should not be damaged. His fantasy that threatened and intimidated by the government and promised property if we expelled him, unbelievable. The only person I ever got threatened by, and I was in the forefront of the move to expel the swami, from him and his followers, not from the government. We have a common interest with the government, I think.

I think both our society and the government have the same complaint about him. That is, he puts himself above the government, didn't answer to anyone else, and we just couldn't take response. The government in the state of West Virginia took certain privileges that belonged to governments to his own. Are you going to be involved at all in this trial?

Well, if I'm asked to testify, I certainly will. You do not know yet. I've testified twice in front of the grand jury. You do not know yet if you will be asked to testify.

No, I don't know yet. You're saying, though, you believe the charges? I believe there's a lot of smoke. And usually when there's smoke, there's...

That's not the law in America. Excuse me, to the extent... I'm sorry, go ahead. To the extent that we were able to investigate, we found a lot of things going on That made him very, very suspicious, but we weren't able to, and has been able to.

Swami, anything you want to say? All right, hold on, Rabindra. Yes, it's, Rabindra, maybe you can tell me how it is that you could have a North American meeting and discuss what to do with the New Brindavan property, unless you had some kind of understanding from the government that you were going to get the property. Is that true, Rabindra?

No, we haven't discussed what property in a North American meeting. As far as I know, the indictment, 61 pieces of property under the label forfeiture, which means they feel that that property is ill-gotten gains, and therefore it's going to fall into their hands. But you haven't discussed that it's falling into your hands. Not into my hands.

It's going to be in the hands of the government. What they do with it is up to... Did you hear that, Swami, that they had discussed this? They offered that as part of a package to me.

A deal. A deal. That's correct. do you know anything about that uh rabindra i i would i would say that he's uh lying uh this is a common experience witnessing right now also do you love this caller i love everyone he's also part and parcel of god everyone is rabindra do you love the swami oh i love the swami but i wish he would straighten out and fly right there there's no resolving an embarrassment to us there's no resolvement of this there's no bringing you to it'll be resolved in court it'll probably be resolved in heaven but higher judgment he has to answer to thank you rabindra thank you swami best of luck thank you swami bhakti pada that was rabindra's sarupa on the phone we'll continue with more of larry king live and we'll do that right after this take life easy worked in my yard and uh hey dr pod create controversy over whether cults serve any higher purpose at all or are just breeding grounds for theft fraud illegal activity joining me now larry shin he's author of the dark lord cult images and the harakrishna in america we're also joined in new york by herbert rosedale attorney and president of the american family foundation we'll get to herbert in a moment larry this book's concept is what well essentially larry um back in 1980 i'd already studied the krishna movement in india for about 15 years at that point it was curious to know whether the american form the hari krishnas as they're often called is done in fact was reasonably authentic relative to its indian form i spent about four and a half months living in 14 different krishna temples in the united states but then also in india that is a christian american christian temples in india is it very different um no not in most places but the thing that I learned is it's hard to generalize and in fact what you just heard in the repartee between the two swamis suggests that ISKCON is anything but of a single piece during that time what I discovered was that there were a lot of people who in fact were trying to say that all the cults are the same not only just all of ISKCON is the same but all the cults are the same and they're also all dangerous it's that uh disparateness that sense that in fact that wasn't true that's not what I was seeing when I went to these various Christian temples that caused me to say the anti-cult movement as well in fact I visited Western Massachusetts I interviewed John Clark of the American Family Foundation I've interviewed people from can the call awareness network people vocally opposed to locally opposed to the cost to try to get some sense of why they were making the claim that all cults seem to be led by a greedy guru who somehow brings under his or her control a group of people who then are brainwashed and who have to be deprogrammed to be gotten This is all part of the Jones Guyana thing, right?

I mean, that's ignited all the fear. It's what I call in my book the Jonestown Syndrome. Okay. What do you mean by the Dark Lord?

Why that title? Well, it's meant to be in a double entendre. That is, on the one hand, Krishna, Krishna in Sanskrit, means the dark-skinned one, the black one. Black is a dark storm cloud.

Hence, his images quite often are coal black. So on the one hand, it's descriptive. On the other hand, the cult, anti-cult people in America would have us believe that all the cults but also of course then the krishnas are demonic they're evil they're dark and hence the double antonia is this a book of reportage or are you winding up with a stand here that some cults are okay some aren't and the american family foundation and taking a stand against all of them is wrong well you're putting words in my mouth but let me do it no it's it's more than reported it's interpretive it's not meant to be simply normative that is It's interpretive in the sense of saying, given all this information, to what extent are the cult stereotypes of the anti-cultists true or not? And I take each chapter and look at brainwashing, the notion of people giving up their free will, what deprogramming is all about, whether we really have deprogramming as a special phenomenon.

In any case, in each case, then, I try to determine to what extent the Krishna's match that description. And I conclude, finally, they don't, but some segments of them approximate it. And hence, there's a whole range. Okay, as we discovered in the first half hour.

Before we talk to Herbert, what do you make of the opening dispute? What do you make of Bhakti Bhat? Well, I met Bhakti Bhat back in 1981. I visited Nubandavan for about 10 days, interviewed 15, 18 devotees there for about three hours each.

Went back in 1985 and spent about two weeks there and then went back in January of 1988. So I've been there three different times. What I make of this, Larry, is that I think Nubundavan has affected this isolation, the fact that it's been under one single guru the whole time, all 20 years, has in fact, I think, given the Swami an inflated sense of his power. And I think that as I listen to some of the senior devotees who have now abandoned him and have left the community far smaller than the number he reported to you, I suspect...

Not 400 and thousands across America. I don't think so. Now, thousands across America, I don't know. What I know is that the community is much less than 100.

Is this trial of smokescreen, or is he in big trouble? I think he's in big trouble, but I don't know. That's for the court to decide. I don't have any special privilege information to suggest.

But you do think he got too big, stayed too long at the fair? I think so. And, in fact, we know some of the charges against the community are true. And the gentleman who called in, do you know him, too?

I know him quite well. Do you hold him in high regard? considerably higher regard partly because in his case he's worked within the system to listen to his godbrothers criticisms and although he's now of course has a position of power himself but I think he's far less at the center personally than someone like Bucky. Herbert Rosedale is attorney and president the American Family Foundation he's with us in New York Herbert if the definition of cults is any group gathering together with a a common belief, that would make any religion a cult. So how are you defining it?

First of all, I think we could spend an enormous time, as you have here, setting up straw men which have no basis in reality. We're not talking about a definition of a cult. We are talking about a particular kind of destructive behavior. And when a group under the control of a totalistic leader engages in destructive behavior, which does unconsented harm to those people who participate in it.

Then we are talking about a destructive cult. And I have no idea whatsoever, being familiar with the American Family Foundation, and CAN, and other of these groups that are often lumped in the quote, anti-cult movement, of any group or individual affiliated with that group who has ever said that all cults are alike. No more than that all people are alike, or all writers, or all books are alike. I deal with people individually.

I have dealt with ex-members of the Hare Krishna group. I have spoken to them about their experiences. I do not find them benevolent, unconsented to experiences which evidence a love, an affection, and an outlook for peace, whether those are under the particular swami or the new group, usually the name is not. Therefore, are you saying that all Hare Krishnas, are there something wrong, or are you saying some, because you said you're not saying all.

What are you saying? What I am saying is that it is my belief that the Hare Krishna group utilizes deceit and manipulation in the introduction of people into joining the group. It uses manipulative tactics to make them stay. So in the case of the Hare Krishnas, you are lumping.

They all do that. No, they do that as a group. I am not saying that each person who joins has gone through an identical experience or that each person who joins is necessarily adversely affected. If only some are and they did not consent to take that risk then that is a destructive organization.

Well then, what if I join a church, what if I join the Jewish church and I hear somebody preaching something and I hit people who eat pork? Would you then condemn the whole Jewish faith because I hit people who eat pork because my rabbi told me pork's bad? No, I did not say anything like that. Why not?

I did something dangerous. If a person injures another person, he has no right to use a religious motivation for the justification for his conduct. So you're not blaming the Christians, you're blaming the act. It is the act which is wrong, which is sought to be punished.

Let me get a break and we'll come right back with Larry Shin, who, by the way, is Vice President of Academic Affairs at Bucknell University and is author of The Dark Lord, and Herbert Rosedale, Attorney and President of the American Family Foundation. first these words i guess so larry shin author of the dark lord cult images in the heart of christian in america and herbert rosedale attorney and president the american family foundation our studios in new york larry wanted to ask something of herbert herbert i'm curious that you deny lumping all the cults together when in fact the american family foundation when i visited there and interviewed john clark and others in fact constantly lumped the moonies the harry krishnas Scientology, The Way International, as synonymous in being deceitful, brainwashing, or mind control, depends on who I was talking with, and always using the same evasive tactic you did, which is to say there may be individuals that are all right, but the group is bad. Now, I'm asking two questions, really.

Would you like me to respond? Well, I'm going to sharpen the question. The first question is, why, if in fact you make all these distinctions you claim, do you lump all those groups together and secondly why in the context of this con itself do you make this claim that somehow the whole group is bad and yet don't refer to its indian form which in fact it mirrors okay first of all with respect to your comment i again reiterate as i had before that we do not in the american family foundation and have never lumped all cults together when you cited a number of groups, if you were careful in listening with your conversation with John Clark, and if you listened to me, you will find that certain groups, no matter what the name of the group is, engage in similar destructive forms of tactics. That is what you're saying then, Herbert.

No, it says those particular... No, let me finish, please. Certain groups engage in certain destructive forms of tactics which have a high risk of causing injury to people. It is part of the technique used by that group which causes injury.

Yes, there are differences among various groups and individuals. Those differences are differences under a general umbrella. I will tell you that with respect to the groups you have talked about, I have talked to people from the way, I have talked to people from the Unification Church, I have talked to people from Hare Krishna, you sit them down in the same room, and you are struck by those people each reporting to the other the similarity of their experiences. I assume, Dr.

Shin, if you have done so, you have had that same experience. And I would ask you how you account for the commonality of the kinds of experiences that they have had. Well, Herbert, I would say, first of all, I don't find them to be so common. For example, I doubt that you've lived inside the Krishna temples.

If you had, you would know there's a tremendous difference between New Vrindavan, the community of the Swami who was on earlier, and the Denver temple, for example, where there are families of long standing, where there's a good relationship between the community and ISKCON there. It's a tradition, in fact, which helped prosecute one of its own members, or should I say a member of ISKCON, when the person was found drug smuggling. In fact, of someone who's delivering drugs to New Brindavan. So there are communities like that where even within ISKCON, I did not find a commonality such as you suggest.

I think that that may very well be true. I think that within ISKCON, just as within any large group, you may find different attitudes and different practices. However, when you talk about the elements you were talking about, if you talk about the widespread utilization of chanting and long periods of meditation to interfere with proper freedom of choice, you will probably find that that is an essential element that is common to many of the groups. As a matter of fact, Herbert, excuse me, but what you've just done is to indict hundreds of thousands of Indians who gave birth in the 16th century to this particular form of Hinduism.

And therefore, if chanting is in fact destructive and mind-altering, it is for them as well. Let me get a break and come back. I wish I had more time. Larry Shin and Herbert Rosedale will do more on this.

First, these words. For a transcript, call 1-900-468-LIVE. You'll be billed $5 on your phone bill. Or send $5 to Journal Graphics, 267 Broadway, New York, New York, 1-0007.

We're running short on time, but Herbert, I didn't ask you. I did ask Larry. What did you think of that dispute in the first half hour of the show? I think it's very important to see when you have a totalistic group and it splits apart how there emerges a picture of hate and violence and dispute among groups which appear to be predicated on love and peace.

And I think the most important thing that will come out of the dispute and trial is information about the Hare Krishna movement, which will serve to inform others into making an informed choice as to whether they would want to be affiliated with a group of that kind. Could I make an observation? What Mr. Rosedale has just demonstrated is exactly what I was saying earlier about, first of all, claiming all the groups are the same by the guilt of association, and therefore the whole group gets colored.

Secondly, using the media to provide the kind of distortions we've heard tonight, where there's a slurperiness about what the word cult means, and in fact, finally it embraces all religious traditions. Finally, the destructiveness is that people can only sort out so much information at a time about these various groups, and so they have difficulty making distinctions between the various parts of ISKCON. Therefore, what Mr. Rosedale does is capture that sense of confusion to make the case about the cults.

Thank you both very much. We'll promise you we'll do more on this and have both of these gentlemen back. It's a very lively debate. Patrick and Donna are standing by in Atlanta.

They will co-anchor the news at the top of the hour. What's up, guys? Well, Larry, tonight we know what is wrong with Michael Jackson, and we will be telling you about it. Also, standing at the gas pump, watching those dials twirl, look at what's happening to gas prices.

Thanks, guys. We'll talk politics post the Gorbachev visit on The Larry King Show on Mutual Radio one hour from now. And tomorrow night, hear the very controversial Albert Goldman. He's done biographies of Elvis Presley, Lenny Bruce, John Lennon.

All of them have raised a storm. We'll talk about the Presley one tomorrow night. Albert Goldman. Don't miss it.

Thanks for joining us. Have a great evening. Good night.