Hare Krsna
R U people crazy, First of all I don't believe in
your philosophy at all but still, if you say that Prabhupad nominated
12 GBC's to initiate so will you please tell me from the list of 12
names from whom you r taking initiation....

If Madhupandit
pr is giving you initiation on behalF of Prabhupad, then apparantly
the chain is already broken as he himself left his guru......
/>If you will except Prabhupad as your guru, without asking Prabhupad
or his representatives, then u r receiving the knowledge in the same
way as Eklava received from Drona Acharya, and in return he has to
give his Thumb.....

Or may be as you were saying in
documentry that Prabhupad is present in the deity form and you can
feel the presence of Prabhupad, then may be tomorrow someone of you
may come forward with a new philosophy that "what is the need of
prabhupad as a deity lets directly approach Krsna ...."
/>Sorry for the offencies. Hare Krsna

"no ,whoever initiates he is still guru(ritvik),he still teaches as/>guru(ritvik),you still accept correction from a vaishnav.he is
just
innitiating on prabhupadas behalf.wheres the problem?"/>
the same is going on - there are many gurus in ISKCON, it
seems most people realise, that those gurus are not uttama or madhyama
adhikaris. Problem is as always: no pure spiritual guidance. Those
guides are conditioned. They will teach in a conditioned state and
will corect in conditioned state.

In a case of possible
ritvik system: who will make sure, that Srila Prabhupada accepted
someone, who is now wanting to become ritvik? Will conditioned souls
judge by themselves that they are really accepted by pure devotee?
Only when guru says: "yes, become my ritvik", only then one could
really know, that he is legitimately acting as ritvik of that guru.
But no such confirmation is possible, not to talk that this is against
established system by parampara.

no ,whoever initiates he is still guru(ritvik),he still teaches as
guru(ritvik),you still accept correction from a vaishnav.he is just
innitiating on prabhupadas behalf.wheres the problem?

pranam! When I recieved my second initiation from Srila
Prabhupada--he showed me how to put my fingers -he corrected me and
when he told me the mantra -he would repeat if I didn't say it
correctly- You say that he is in the diety and therefore he is present
-yes you can worship him in this way--but can he correct your worship?
Can he chastise you when you do something wrong-initiation is a two
way relationship--we are not impersonalists--in this way you are are
trying to convince your selves that you do not need a guru and that
you don't need to search out sadu-sanga, and due to this mentality
you never get the association of advanced vaishnavas--if they came
before you -you might not even be able to recognize them or offer
proper respect because you are your own association and your own mind
is your guru-- this is a made up philosophy and my Srila Prabhupada
would never approve of it. I think you know this deep in your
heart-it dosn't mean you can't take shelter of Srila PRabhupada's
books and instructions-- in fact you should do that -and if you do you
will seek out a pure devotee--the path of Bhakti does not always run
in a straight path -it is not that easy--it runs like a stream -curved
and bending-- you have to try to find it- by seeking the
association with true saints, and true pure vaishnavas.

It seems from this all debate history, that Srila Prabhupada appointed
some ritviks, with a hint, that they should become diksha gurus after
his departure for ISKCON newcommers, but giving those future gurus
clear knowledge, that they are not qualified, that they were kanishta
adhikaris and must follow strictly.

Then, after they are
able to find uttama guru, those kanishta gurus, they should take
shiksha from him, and in this way, they and their diksha disciples are
O.K., taking shelter in a shiksha way of uttama guru. This is
sidhantic and practical, and nicely can be seen in Jaiva Dharma of
Bhaktivinode Thakur from first chapters. Also, Srila Prabhupada told
disciples, if they have questions, go to his Godbrother Srila Bhakti
Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj. So, in this way, everything was nicely
arranged, but somehow everything was disrupted by unfortunate mistaken
endevours.

Otherwise, kanishta guru cannot help much, so,
all those problems happened, which are recorded in ISKCON history./>
Guru, who is present on Earth in vapu is a must, that is
common sense. Because,

tasmād gurum prapadyeta/>jijnāsuh śreya uttamam
śābde pare ca nisnātam/>brahmany upaśamāśrayam

and

tad-vijnanartham
sa gurum evabhigaccet

One must approach guru in a direct
sense, meet him in physical presence of both, ask him questions and
serve. That is a standart of parampara, that diksha initiation in
formal sense is given by present on Earth guru. Even those whose
initiation is performed by ritvik on behalf of guru, afterwards must
some time physically meet their guru, and ask him questions, serve
him, and in this way be trained in spiritual life.

WOW ! Jai Srila Prabhupada ! Thank you Balaram